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Full Tilt chatter containment thread Full Tilt chatter containment thread

08-25-2011 , 05:58 AM
I heard the rumors that ivey's lawsuit was only to benefit himself and not focused on players getting paid, but Harry's comments make Ivey look MUCH worse imo than he did before I realized just how much he hurt our chances of getting $ back for his own personal gain...i rmr ppl like robl and matusow heavily criticizing ivey when he did this, but didnt necessarily believe them. but now this almost makes ivey look as bad or probably worse than howard in my eyes
08-25-2011 , 06:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by elstunar
I heard the rumors that ivey's lawsuit was only to benefit himself and not focused on players getting paid, but Harry's comments make Ivey look MUCH worse imo than he did before I realized just how much he hurt our chances of getting $ back for his own personal gain...i rmr ppl like robl and matusow heavily criticizing ivey when he did this, but didnt necessarily believe them. but now this almost makes ivey look as bad or probably worse than howard in my eyes
It's still rumour..

That being said, Harry's version of events is very plausible..easy to think things could have worked out the way he said. The one thing I do like about it, is that it is very simplistic (which is generally how things are). I feel sometimes we way over analyze what's going on in certain situations and it leads to things like 95% of this thread.

If you happen to read this Harry...

You have said a couple of times now that you have someone willing to look at the company...
Why have they not approached FTP themselves (or via you)?
08-25-2011 , 06:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by elstunar
I heard the rumors that ivey's lawsuit was only to benefit himself and not focused on players getting paid, but Harry's comments make Ivey look MUCH worse imo than he did before I realized just how much he hurt our chances of getting $ back for his own personal gain...i rmr ppl like robl and matusow heavily criticizing ivey when he did this, but didnt necessarily believe them. but now this almost makes ivey look as bad or probably worse than howard in my eyes
If what Harry said is true, it seems that he is just another selfish scumbag who happens to be really good at poker.
08-25-2011 , 06:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momo_the_kid
If what Harry said is true, it seems that he is just another selfish scumbag who happens to be really good at poker.
Prior to this, was there ever any evidence to the contrary?
08-25-2011 , 06:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by coduresa
So according to Hdmet the new investor would need to come up with:
$300m(player funds)+$50m(operating costs)+the fine for DOJ.
But what about all the money(est. $160m) frozen by the DOJ?Would the DOJ just keep it or would it then belong to the new owners?
These numbers are hard to believe somehow.
Maybe somebody could send Hdmet last post to the lawyer and ask him if any of this is true?
Also I am still wondering about Hdmets motivation to get so involved in this whole affair.
WHat has happened in the past (neteller for example) is the DOJ kept the money seized and let the indicted company work out a payment plan for the rest of the fines. There is no way any of this DOJ money is going to find its way into player pockets or FTP coffers. IE, if X is the amount of ftp funds the DOJ has right now, any settlement is going involve a $ figure for fines significantly greater than X -- but the siezed funds (generally) will be used to pay down the balance of the fines.
08-25-2011 , 06:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperdgg
Prior to this, was there ever any evidence to the contrary?
Not that a shocker I guess.
What I am really interested to know is that how people will react if someday they find out that the investor was really planted by Pokerstars to doom FTP like Harry said. LOL
08-25-2011 , 06:41 AM
thanks for your posts harry and sharing whatever information you had with us.
have a good trip. hopefully things work out even tho it looks pretty bleak at the moment.
08-25-2011 , 06:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEPpoker
WHat has happened in the past (neteller for example) is the DOJ kept the money seized and let the indicted company work out a payment plan for the rest of the fines. There is no way any of this DOJ money is going to find its way into player pockets or FTP coffers. IE, if X is the amount of ftp funds the DOJ has right now, any settlement is going involve a $ figure for fines significantly greater than X -- but the siezed funds (generally) will be used to pay down the balance of the fines.
Maybe you are right, but it just disgusts me to no end. DOJ should know clearly by now that the money they froze is player money and shoule be returned to the players. FTP doesnt have any company money as it is under-capitalized. DOJ should go after those owners' personal assets instead they robbed innocent US citizens of their money as part of their so-called fines. just so ridiculous. I am wondering why FTP didnt argue with DOJ about this or maybe they tried but failed.
08-25-2011 , 06:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hdemet

Then followed three more serious potential investors one of whom was brought in by Phil Ivey. Phil Ivey was going to receive a significant kick back if he could convince the owners and board to accept his investors deal/offer but when it was considered it was found to be the worst of the three and as such was rejected.

Ivey then went into prima donna mode sulked and issued litigation against Full Tilt effectively ****ing them over with this action as he seriously believed that Poker Stars would pay him millions a year and so wanted his freedom "To pursue other interests."
While i think this could be superficially true, i honestly dont buy that any of these investors were that serious . I think the idea that they were serious is spin that comes out of FTP the same way as the seriousness of the later investors (which you admit was a sham).

Let me give you an alternate scenario which seems just as plausible given the facts that you have presented.

The euro investors werent serious
the three "original" investors werent serious
Binion wasn't serious.
No one has ever seriously entertained the idea of buying FT except the MB people you talked about -- who planned to default on debt to US players.


I'm not saying that they were never interested in at least hearing FTP out. But i dont think any reasonable person has ever been interested in paying 300 million dollars for ftp in any sense other than an attendant at a vegas timeshare presentation is interested in buying a timeshare.

If we take everything harry says at face value concerning the european investors then we know that ftp was either lying about how serous investors are (oh wait -- theyre not saying anything but the unnamed official sources that always seem to have positive speculation about ftp are) or just irrationally optimistic about their willingness to buy the company.

Is there any reason that these same problems (either lying or cant tell about investor seriousness) arent likely to have effected their earlier perception that these two other companies were willing to buy them out lock stock and barrell pre-ivey lawsuit?
08-25-2011 , 07:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momo_the_kid
If what Harry said is true, it seems that he is just another selfish scumbag who happens to be really good at poker.
Maybe so but at least he was trying to find investors instead of being depressed and locked up in his $4m mansion expecting a miracle.
08-25-2011 , 07:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momo_the_kid
Maybe you are right, but it just disgusts me to no end. DOJ should know clearly by now that the money they froze is player money and shoule be returned to the players. FTP doesnt have any company money as it is under-capitalized. DOJ should go after those owners' personal assets instead they robbed innocent US citizens of their money as part of their so-called fines. just so ridiculous. I am wondering why FTP didnt argue with DOJ about this or maybe they tried but failed.

there is a problem with your logic. The money seized did not belong to players. It belonged to FTP. FTP had financial obligations to the players. Im sure they had a variety of financial obligations they can't/didn't meet

The DOJ can't play robin hood -- redistributing the funds to people to whom ftp allegedly owes money (and even if they could, they wouldnt). They could give it back to FTP (which, again isnt going to happen), but even then we don't know that it would go to players. In fact, players saw none of the 40M allegedly released by the irish bank a couple months ago.
08-25-2011 , 07:03 AM
I have asked myself many times “What is really happening within the walls of Pocket Kings/Full Tilt Poker?”

I do believe is what is inside that matters, not just what appears to be.
What's left of Full Tilt Poker: the software, the intellectual property (some bright people turning grey by the day) and a once triumphant brand living on its past glories. The inept way in which the management treats their staff, contractors & the pros is mirrored in how they are handling the players and their money. I was with the company for quite a while, until recently, when any remnant of loyalty was stolen away.
Pocket Kings - Full Tilt Poker is on its knees. A decease has it in its grip and it is keeping it on its knees; greed, arrogance and dark management practices pushed it down to the dirt.

The headquarters of Pocket Kings Ltd – parent company of Full Tilt Poker are controlled in fact by 3 individuals who have made sure over the past years to get close to Ray Bitar and feed him what they wish him to hear not what he needs to hear, gaining power by feeding his insecurities in a variety of ways. They act not only as a filter for employees, restricting direct contact to Ray Bitar but also make sure that the whole board of executives and the rest of the management get only well crafter information, customized to these 3 individuals' personal benefits. The end result is that they are a law onto themselves. Pocket King as a company, cannot grow to new ideas or to a proper corporate structure as the scale over took their abilities and thus they went into aggressive defense to cover up their own lack of ability and creativity.

Caroline Lynch, head of HR is well known for her sharp tactics, harassment even in the rest rooms… and is incredibly unskilled in any people management, I’m sure upstanding HR professionals would cringe upon review of her actions. Commitments are always verbal and then denies when looking for follow up by action or in writing. One of her claims to fame is how she will storm into your office, after having your access to your computer blocked and threaten you with dismissal because you challenged a HR's communication process in an attempt to add value. It only takes a quick google search to find out more details about the results she's achieved after her poor performance in Pocket Kings.

PocketKings/Full Tilt Poker's HR department has no credibility or respect from anyone anymore, it seems to always be making the most ridiculous moves, causing each day more and more harm to the moral of the employees and to what is left of the reputation of Pocket Kings.
It was already a challenge to attract good qualified people to apply for positions badly needed when the company was at its best, long before Black Friday, due to the sad and well deserved reputation HR had already claimed, but hopefully nobody else allows them to treat them unfairly. They need to learn that no matter how much money they or the company might have/had it gives them no rights to ignore people's rights.

In this crisis times I would urge the official government organizations to keep a close eye on what HR at Pocket Kings might have in mind... Seriously.

Now, with their silence treatment, where the whole staff is prohibited from communicating any information to players, pros, creditors or in fact anyone at all from outside the company, regularly reminding their staff of the confidentiality clause in their contracts - it's the way it rolls, each opportunity, another threat to make sure they don’t forget who they are dealing with - it’s getting worse and worse every hour, the company is in crisis and the staff are threatened that if the look to get alternative employment in the industry they have developed with the secure the families future they will be sue for all they have. Recently also the employees who left to a well known Irish site received solicitor’s letters to stop them from attracting people to join with them.

Pocket Kings has lost over 120 employees since Black Friday so far, they left because of complete lack of confidence in the company, and this number doesn't include the international staff that was actually laid off recently. Most of the remaining staff has one thing in mind quite clear, if these three individuals are not managed aside/out when the new investor steps in, along Bitar, they’re leaving. It was mentioned by the CTO, also close friend of Caroline Lynch, that the management was more than likely not changing. This alone pushed a number of employees to pack and leave to a secure job away from this ridicule - there is no better word to describe it.

There has been no communication about the situation and the future of the staff apart from three short emails telling nothing, and the correspondent threats reminding information confidentiality, the moral is on the floor, uncertainty is huge, people have families to feed, bills to pay, and there is absolutely no communication, no respect, and this is well known to players and staff alike, but the management doesn't seem to see anything beyond their own pockets. If there is a deal on the table, if they are in fact close to finalizing a deal, why are they allowing employees to leave doing absolutely nothing to retain anyone? Internally, people are sitting at their desks in disbelief. There is always a reaction, a threat, never an initiative, never reassurance.

As an example, this situation describes clearly how they function: Pocket Kings always had a good restaurant, sometimes food was a bit OTT but hey, no complaints.
Now, after Black Friday, things changed dramatically, and for the last couple of months in particular, lasagne was the regular dish. Still nice, but what felt like a spit on the face of everyone queuing to get lasagne.... once again... was to see an entourage of kitchen staff, carrying trays of fancy food passed everyone's noses. Literally! Sometimes as sick as lobsters, all for Ray Bitar and his gang. This made people particularly angry, they brought the company to the embarrassment that is now, we got the pasta, they still got lobster!!! Sick. Worse for the poor kitchen staff carrying the tray, it is not about the food, it's about the complete disregard and ignorance about people management what's so Disgraceful.
Now, apparently there is no food service anymore. Would this be the case for all employees?
Or the summer ‘family day’. A big bask that rained for most of the day. There were 2 small marquees to keep the employees and their kids dry, and a third one, much bigger with silver service and windows just for the top brass that had just 3 of them sat and drinking when their staff and kids got soaked? And those three people were… yes, exactly.

If Caroline Lynch ever gets a job again, whoever hires her is either incredibly blind or wants to send a company to the cleaners! And won't pay the bill either.

But all of this has been overseen by the expert eye of Deirdre O’Shaughnessy, unclear position for many... but described as “very powerful within the company, be careful not to upset her”, she is in fact a director, the only registered Irish director of Poker Kings LTD and Pocket Kings Consultancy alongside Ray Bitar. Customer service and affiliates team, unsurprisingly, are two of the disastrous teams she directs too... Apart from an operations management position.
The fact is, with her, just as with Caroline Lynch, employees are very careful of what they say or how much information they give them because IT WILL be used against you if necessary.

But the most dangerous piece of this puzzle is Gil Coronado. I recently read a post on a website where he was accurately described as “Ray’s lieutenant in arms’. Gil is amazingly, getting away with all sort of questionable behavior!!! The murder of the Full Tilt Poker Brand, the mismanagement of the player’s funds and operation accounts neglecting to keep them segregated and the abuse of power being him who’s really behind Deirdre, Carline Lynch and HR’s despotic politics towards employees and the restrictions on player communication.
Gil Coronado is the CFO of the company, the financial advisor or Ray Bitar. He has, needles to mention, absolutely no respect from anyone within Pocket Kings, seen for what he is, unprofessional, completely inept at his job and one of the main people responsible for the fact that Full Tilt Poker has not being able to return the money to the players! He is the C.F.O for goodness sake!!! And hasn’t stepped down after what they’ve done to the players??? It’s beyond anyone’s comprehension.

A well known fact is that any investor with the minimum self-respect for their own reputation and hoping to make a profitable investment needs to make sure they get rid of this lot. If they don’t, the players should never trust the site again, if there’s still anyone out there that would ever do.
Until a couple of months ago, not sure if this hasn’t changed, he kept an exotic lizard in his office, bottles of champagne and a setting that was more that of a night club than a respectable CFO’s office.

It says it all...There is no respect; it's just a laugh, a game... Pocket Kings needs a serious change in management, at the moment it’s a joke and a laugh at the face of all the players and employees who trusted them.
There is, in fact, not much hope; the company is more than likely closing down soon. But if Pocket Kings ever had a chance, even by rebranding, it would have been only a small bit of flapping in the mud with that bunch of unskilled individuals driving it.

Looking forward to the reactions... will they be able to convince the developers to write good reviews and attack negative statements like they used to now?
It won’t be a case of looking in to see how to find a solution; it will be a case of attacking who spoke.

R.I.P Full Tilt Poker - it was good while it lasted, but the poison got you in the end…
So long!
08-25-2011 , 07:12 AM
Bottom line is that FTP was the least serious of them all on every street and now they mean business but are running into a dead end.
Months ago they were looking for investors for a minority stake up to a half with Howie and friends keeping control with full intend to cover up the shortfall in money. No intentions there to ever pay us all but only pretend that they could and hope for a new pokerboom or new markets to open.
08-25-2011 , 07:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEPpoker
there is a problem with your logic. The money seized did not belong to players. It belonged to FTP. FTP had financial obligations to the players. Im sure they had a variety of financial obligations they can't/didn't meet

The DOJ can't play robin hood -- redistributing the funds to people to whom ftp allegedly owes money (and even if they could, they wouldnt). They could give it back to FTP (which, again isnt going to happen), but even then we don't know that it would go to players. In fact, players saw none of the 40M allegedly released by the irish bank a couple months ago.
It's painful to have to say this for the 15000th time. Do you know the difference between frozen and seized? The funds were frozen, NOT seized, and it is a significant difference.
08-25-2011 , 07:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matacow
This have been my biggest LOL so far as a member of the 2+2 community!

Not only do you define the human "nature"
but you go on to claim that a human acting according to his "nature" (your claim) is morally wrong.

Only penalties can restrain man from his nature?

Haha you should suck Hobbes dick.


You are a philosophical ******. Nothing personal, love your posts!
i don't get it

do you agree or disagree with his statement?

if you disagree, then why?

you're not impressing anybody by acting like that you know
08-25-2011 , 07:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnWithTheShow
Everything he has reported, in my opinion, was either a rumor or already widely known. He is pretty arrogant and lords over the info and flames anyone that seems to know anything (see that Deuces guy, etc).

I don't mind rumors being reported but to act like the NY Times of poker reporting is just ridiculous. Pretty obvious the guy is on some sicko power trip from all of this but I guess I'm the only one that sees it that way so I must be wrong.
Seriously, why all the hate?

It's not ever been Subject Poker's mission to be first to the page with rumors that are out there, there are plenty of other sites doing just that. I can tell you that every single article has been checked, double checked and triple checked for factualy accuracy. The site doesn't take any payments from any site, and does not even allow advertising from poker sites, which btw, could generate some sorely needed financing, all in the interest of being objective. The stories just simply go where the facts take them.

If you are somehow jealous that Noah was the one to do the Jungleman interview, or be the conduit for the Ifrah questions, be advised that he was asked to do it by this very community, drafted in fact. This trust was not misplaced imo, as the reader can be sure every time, that what is reported is FACT, which contrary to your view, is more valuable than printing all the rumors out there.

It's crazy the amount of time and energy that Noah and others put in to get the facts out there, and separating fact from fantasy. To take personal jabs at him for doing just that, is simply absurd.
08-25-2011 , 07:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by solongdue
...
well... there it is... finally some FTP (ex)employees say something, and it isnt pretty...

makes u wanna cry

:_(
08-25-2011 , 07:35 AM
wow interesting read solongdue thanks
08-25-2011 , 07:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by insidemanpoker
It's painful to have to say this for the 15000th time. Do you know the difference between frozen and seized? The funds were frozen, NOT seized, and it is a significant difference.
I can imagine this kind of arguing was goining on at FTP and leads to nowhere because funds cannot made available by renaming it.
08-25-2011 , 07:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahSD
Skipped your question the first time because I hadn't thought about it much yet.. then I hadn't check the thread so I didn't see your other questions.

I'm not going to release the audio as I'd originally planned for a few reasons:

Mostly I don't want to release them because if I release them people will listen to them even if I say there's nothing there, and they'll waste their time and likely be worse off for doing it.

Also, before it really sunk in that Ifrah simply wasn't comfortable enough in his knowledge of these things to talk about them publicly, I pressed him a bit by throwing out various rumors that I've heard. As much as I'm sure NVG would love these rumors to become public, I'd rather not contribute to misinformation, so I'd rather not publish audio that includes me mentioning a bunch of those rumors.

I also told Ifrah that I wouldn't be releasing the audio at some point when it became clear that he wasn't comfortable speaking about this stuff so publicly without checking his facts first, so I don't really want to go back on my word there. Though I doubt he'd mind and I obviously have the right to release the audio before that point, the idea still sorta bugs me a little.

I will listen to the recording at some point tomorrow to see what there is that's worth posting, and I'll post a transcription of whatever I find if I find anything. But, it's seriously mostly just me asking incredibly verbose questions as is my nature and him saying that he's not comfortable enough with his knowledge of XXXX to talk about it publicly, but he'll forward the question along.
Was reading the posts that happened through the night and came across this one. I think that it is fairly bad not to release the audio as you are now acting as some kind of censor and have taken it upon yourself to decide what is good for us. The only saving grace you have for not releasing it is the legal stance after you told Ifrah that you wouldn't release it. I feel the following bit of your post is downright condescending

"Mostly I don't want to release them because if I release them people will listen to them even if I say there's nothing there, and they'll waste their time and likely be worse off for doing it. ". You actually believe that you have the right to decide what we should listen to or not.

This is not a bash Noah post as he has reported some good stories throughout this dark time but to now be acting as a censor is astounding. Like you said it may not be of much use to anyone and also may have rumours in it but hey surely everyone has a right to decide what bits they believe. This "I am doing it for your your own good" nonsense has to stop, I am sure people at full tilt thought exactly the same thing with their lack of communication and look how that pissed people off.
08-25-2011 , 07:40 AM
ty for your post solongdue, if you got more ex-ftp willing to post about their personal experience tell them we would be happy to hear about it
08-25-2011 , 07:41 AM
If they are close to going busto and they've reached a low settlement figure with the DOJ, then they need to avoid any kind of bankruptcy for as long as possible. I just don't think there's a chance that if poker is regulated and legalized in the US that nobody would buy FTP for 350m+.

It cost 2.7 billion to build the Wynn resort in 2005. $350,000,000 with a helluva lot less maintenance, overhead, and payroll would be a no-brainer.

So why not just start your own ipoker company from the ground up? Because you'd already have a HUGE US player base, funds in place, and likely a FAR better software than any of your competitors would have for years... then there's rush poker.

Not to mention that they could potentially open up FTP for the rest of the worlds play (or atleast where possible at that time) and have a huge player base with funds already in place.

The players would look at the new group like heroes for delivering everyones money back long after it was given up on.


They would likely make a very large portion of their money back just from what they would've had to spend on advertising (to get that big of a player base) and software development just in the first year or two. They're also going to get a big head start on the competition and should be able to easily secure themselves as the #1 US site for, well, as long as the US has online poker.


I'm sure something could be worked out to assure that players, in order to get their funds, had to sign into the new site (which would basically be the old site) in order to withdrawl their long frozen funds.

Last edited by LaserBeamTheCat; 08-25-2011 at 07:47 AM.
08-25-2011 , 07:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by insidemanpoker
It's painful to have to say this for the 15000th time. Do you know the difference between frozen and seized? The funds were frozen, NOT seized, and it is a significant difference.
Yes. One is a term you made up (frozen). One is the actual term for what happened to the funds (seizure). The funds were seized by court order. Not frozen. Or refrigerated. or lightly chilled. Or any other euphemism you care to make up. They were siezed.


You are correct that seized funds aren't the same as forfeited funds. But funds that are "frozen" by court order are, indeed considered seized. Once the court rules on their disposition, if they go to the government, they are considered "forfeited".

The equally ridiculous assertion that "the doj didnt seize the funds the court did" is untrue as well. The DOJ seized the funds -- they were able to do so because of the court order, but they were the seizing agency. DO you know what kind of warrant the court issued to "freeze" these funds? ill give you a hint -- it begins with "S" and ends with "youre wrong"

Last edited by AEPpoker; 08-25-2011 at 08:18 AM.
08-25-2011 , 08:28 AM
Who is Harry please? Is he an ex-FTP employee?

Seems the most complete response I've seen and just wanted to understand how accurate that post is likely to be?

Thanks
08-25-2011 , 08:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cattledondo
Who is Harry please? Is he an ex-FTP employee?

Seems the most complete response I've seen and just wanted to understand how accurate that post is likely to be?

Thanks
Harry Demetriou - he has proven to have good information.

      
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