FTP Discussion Thread (Everything but big new news goes here. Cliffs in OP)
09-04-2011
, 10:04 AM
09-04-2011
, 10:12 AM
Quote:
lol @ tarnished brand.
Two years from now, if I've been paid in full and continue to receive money from FullTilt Poker, this whole Black Friday thing will be lightyears behind me. Most amateurs still don't have the slightest clue what's going on with FTP right now. They'll see a Phil Ivey video with him wearing an FTP badge and deposit some money to try and bink a tournament. None of them will take the time and research FTP's past and see if the site is shady. I mean, just look at AP, lol. Fish are still playing there.
Two years from now, if I've been paid in full and continue to receive money from FullTilt Poker, this whole Black Friday thing will be lightyears behind me. Most amateurs still don't have the slightest clue what's going on with FTP right now. They'll see a Phil Ivey video with him wearing an FTP badge and deposit some money to try and bink a tournament. None of them will take the time and research FTP's past and see if the site is shady. I mean, just look at AP, lol. Fish are still playing there.
09-04-2011
, 10:15 AM
So a website has my roll after 'going on vacation' for 3 months and I don't ask my friends / mr google wtf is going on?No ROW players at UB. No advertising for ROW for UB. Anyone left there is just trying to increase their rake, without depositing, in order to get on the list for the $250 max monthly (?) payouts - think I'll stick with Pokerstars!
Another factor in will the 60% who can return, return to FTP? Pokerstars has changed a bit to cater for FTP types. Enough to make them interested, but not enough to screw up the existing PS offer (some ST's, no multi entry, final table deals etc).
At best, 50% of the 60% are coming back to anew, financed, FTP without degens at the helm.
At worst, welcome to FTP, part of the merge network.
I hope they do come back; those bonuses are going to be legendary! 'Look, we know we disappeared with your cash, and didn't quite have enough to pay back, and Pil Ivey might blow your roll, or we might commit bank fraud, and we only just managed to do a deal....but deposit here, you might be lucky'
09-04-2011
, 10:21 AM
09-04-2011
, 10:25 AM
09-04-2011
, 10:25 AM
09-04-2011
, 10:28 AM
I wasn't aware of that fact. Who do the AGCC define as owner? Is it as simple as fire Ray a month after selling co. or are all director termed as owners? Would assume just Ray as can't reapply for licence each time an owner wants out.
It's worse than I thought then. FTP can't even benefit ($$) from existing licencing arrangements. FTP dont need all those max 700 staff to serve 60% max of previous players. Don't need that big office. Wonder how many $$ to buy way out of existing contractual obligations going fwd
And.... the new owners, if not able to secure AGCC licence, won't be able to advertise in ROW shortly (assuming KGC licence comes into play) Just how will these amateur customers even be aware FTP is back?
Educate me again: FTP recently got AGCC licence, were they with KGC or another regulator prior? TY
It's worse than I thought then. FTP can't even benefit ($$) from existing licencing arrangements. FTP dont need all those max 700 staff to serve 60% max of previous players. Don't need that big office. Wonder how many $$ to buy way out of existing contractual obligations going fwd
And.... the new owners, if not able to secure AGCC licence, won't be able to advertise in ROW shortly (assuming KGC licence comes into play) Just how will these amateur customers even be aware FTP is back?
Educate me again: FTP recently got AGCC licence, were they with KGC or another regulator prior? TY
Last edited by vamooose; 09-04-2011 at 10:49 AM.
09-04-2011
, 10:32 AM
Quote:
I wasn't aware of that fact. Who do the AGCC define as owner? Is it as simple as fire Ray a month after selling co. or are all director termed as owners? Would assume just Ray as can't reapply for licence each time an owner wants out.
It's worse than I thought then. FTP can't even benefit ($$) from existing licencing arrangements. FTP dont need all those max 700 staff to serve 60% max of previous players. Don't need that big office. Wonder how many $$ to buy way out of existing contractual obligations going fwd
It's worse than I thought then. FTP can't even benefit ($$) from existing licencing arrangements. FTP dont need all those max 700 staff to serve 60% max of previous players. Don't need that big office. Wonder how many $$ to buy way out of existing contractual obligations going fwd
09-04-2011
, 10:48 AM
09-04-2011
, 10:52 AM
Quote:
This, but players so far have with respect to their position as one of the major parties not a commensurate stakeholder position to talk as one group with authority with the other parties.
I'll give you my free consulting FWIW (aren't you linked to an investor)
but agree with your last paragraph many of the ideas and suggestions are dependent on the actual amounts of assets/liabilities and the flexibility of parties.
I've made several suggestions on ways to get a deal as I think getting FTP running should be the number one priority as FTP themselves have said - a business without an income isn't a business. If we can get a commitment and public statement that all parties can agree on this key point then we can move forward.
tl;dr WARNING for the detail below. Apologies in prior for any mistakes in this long 'thinking out loud' discussion wall of text
I'm not sure if you saw but in previous posts I described the problem of what appears all parties demanding a big financial commitment from mainly the investors NOW and the standard solution is to stretch that out into deferred installment payment plan.
The DOJ has previously accepted payment plans though usually keeps what has been frozen already - they could release any which they know they are unlikely to be able show in Court is derived from US players or for the accounts that are 100% worldwide players return (to a trustee not current FTP) a proportion that reflects the US/non-US player makeup. They agree to not allow the in rem action apply to investor and the new FTP business and it's assets e.t.c.
No changes to the criminal charges vs individuals - this is about the company.
In return the DOJ gets a bigger fine and as in the recently posted civil filing FTP agrees that the remaining funds are US player activity derived. This reduces the risk of ROW foreign Court claims and expedites discovery for the DOJ.
Players will agree to not withdrawal a % of funds for a specified time period and in return get their funds placed in segregated trust fund(backed to full value by an overdraft as described below) with trustee(s) of the new investor and/or vetted by players to be acceptable i.e. so not old management.
AGCC is willing to accept instead of a liquidity requirement to be able to pay all players if they ALL potentially cashed out now and similar ratios(and as it appears wasn't met anyways) an approach that takes account of the time variable of deferred liabilities. They can say they acted with discretion in an exceptional matter and protected players and the now segregated fund for players is stronger protection than ever. UK players don't get stiffed so the UK Govt. and Gambling Commission will be much less likely to rescind their licensing powers to UK customers.
US players accept a deferred payment like the ROW players but the investor gives additional bonuses to ROW players as a function of play as they incur risk from playing in generating profits for FTP where as US players have no similar risk( as does a ROW player that doesn't play). I have ideas on how to value this but won't post here.
ROW players are given the safety of segregated trust funds and are allowed (as Us players too) to withdrawal a fixed amount as a good faith sign from the investor and the given bonus is an incentive to play. If enough players return to unlock their rolls and there is sufficient liquidity (cut some redundant game types if only temporarily) then the site will continue as pre AGCC hearing days. The investor takes the risk that they can keep/make FTP as a leading site serving the ROW (and in future maybe the US) - this is the investment risk in running a poker site that the investor is investing for. They start off with an existing player base and setup and staff as substantial advantage -all they need to do is convince players to stay and patronise their new site.
FTP as a company is willing to accept a smaller 'price' for the company. I heard zero if the investor pays ALL players and their current DOJ fine LOL.
They agree that those proceeds go into the pot before they receive any left over sale proceeds/dividends. They agree to transfer all interest and associated software licenses e.t.c from any of the other shell companies in perpetuity - in return the software royalties will continue to be paid to that company. FTP gets the DOJ fine paid by the new investor and the sale proceeds and many of the employees continue to have a job and the primary consulting office is kept in Dublin so Dublin gains -they could agree to lower the rent or reduced taxes (will be lower as new FTP will be ~ non-profit till all parties are repaid) for a period in return to keeping the new company located there.
The investor and players will want top management gone and they will want to cut their risk and stand down as is standard when a company is strongly indicted. IMHO they only remain to broker a deal and/or not talk depending on one's view. I believe this has already been agreed in the last FTP statement.
Spnsored players and other that benefited from FTP either directly as top shareholders or inflated salaries/bonuses which it would seem were possibly not from company profits, offer to put up money to repay players and goes direct to the player trustee fund or if more substantial may be exchanged for minority shareholding in the new FTP. they agree to non-compete clauses in the poker business. They can say they put up money to pay players out their own pocket and if players get repaid they are unlikely to face lawsuits and stand better chance of dismissal motions.
Also there are other unknown risks - if alot of people owe you money it's just your problem - if you owe alot of people it's lots of problems for you. When we talk about thousands of players and DOJ and potentially other State prosecutors...
Top tier pros or as sponsored red pros put up some money as a function of their perceived or known role towards repaying players. Since poker celebrities depend on fans for publicity. Why would anyone in the future sponsor them if they have none or have anti-fans as the Koreans say
US DOJ and/or players/FTP appoint a trustee to pursue the significantly large shortfall ~118million from unprocessed funds from US players that would go a long way to repaying US and worldwide much faster. From anecdotal evidence there are honest players that want to pay but the money wasn't taken from their account. At the very least a 'donation' mechanism can be setup where honest players send to a trustee who in return will ensure that their FTP account is squared off and excluded form any litigation by any other parties. In a bankruptcy the information of those players will be highly valuable to other companies that wish to avoid these bad debt and higher transaction risk customers. Players that don't pay could find other poker companies(in a future expressly legal US scenario) and or current casinos get treated differently or barred. Writing a check without the intent to honour that payment is fraud and imoral imho.
The investor given these deferred payments in turn accepts to take a 'small' %profit until all parties are paid and then investor gains control of all the profits of the company. All these deferred payments reduce the initial cash outlay and the ROW player funds could be backed by a bank overdraft type facility that could be to the value of the total liabilities of ROW players (to fulfill AGCC regs for the ROW new FTP part) but won't necessarily be drawn on.
All the payments to parties are based off a function of FTP's profit thereby aligning all parties going forward. It operates in such manner until all parties are full paid and funded then it reverts to the investor/shareholders getting 100% of the profits of the company.
if you made it this far, now post some criticism improvements
(that means lurkers too)
I'll give you my free consulting FWIW (aren't you linked to an investor)
but agree with your last paragraph many of the ideas and suggestions are dependent on the actual amounts of assets/liabilities and the flexibility of parties.
I've made several suggestions on ways to get a deal as I think getting FTP running should be the number one priority as FTP themselves have said - a business without an income isn't a business. If we can get a commitment and public statement that all parties can agree on this key point then we can move forward.
tl;dr WARNING for the detail below. Apologies in prior for any mistakes in this long 'thinking out loud' discussion wall of text
I'm not sure if you saw but in previous posts I described the problem of what appears all parties demanding a big financial commitment from mainly the investors NOW and the standard solution is to stretch that out into deferred installment payment plan.
The DOJ has previously accepted payment plans though usually keeps what has been frozen already - they could release any which they know they are unlikely to be able show in Court is derived from US players or for the accounts that are 100% worldwide players return (to a trustee not current FTP) a proportion that reflects the US/non-US player makeup. They agree to not allow the in rem action apply to investor and the new FTP business and it's assets e.t.c.
No changes to the criminal charges vs individuals - this is about the company.
In return the DOJ gets a bigger fine and as in the recently posted civil filing FTP agrees that the remaining funds are US player activity derived. This reduces the risk of ROW foreign Court claims and expedites discovery for the DOJ.
Players will agree to not withdrawal a % of funds for a specified time period and in return get their funds placed in segregated trust fund(backed to full value by an overdraft as described below) with trustee(s) of the new investor and/or vetted by players to be acceptable i.e. so not old management.
AGCC is willing to accept instead of a liquidity requirement to be able to pay all players if they ALL potentially cashed out now and similar ratios(and as it appears wasn't met anyways) an approach that takes account of the time variable of deferred liabilities. They can say they acted with discretion in an exceptional matter and protected players and the now segregated fund for players is stronger protection than ever. UK players don't get stiffed so the UK Govt. and Gambling Commission will be much less likely to rescind their licensing powers to UK customers.
US players accept a deferred payment like the ROW players but the investor gives additional bonuses to ROW players as a function of play as they incur risk from playing in generating profits for FTP where as US players have no similar risk( as does a ROW player that doesn't play). I have ideas on how to value this but won't post here.
ROW players are given the safety of segregated trust funds and are allowed (as Us players too) to withdrawal a fixed amount as a good faith sign from the investor and the given bonus is an incentive to play. If enough players return to unlock their rolls and there is sufficient liquidity (cut some redundant game types if only temporarily) then the site will continue as pre AGCC hearing days. The investor takes the risk that they can keep/make FTP as a leading site serving the ROW (and in future maybe the US) - this is the investment risk in running a poker site that the investor is investing for. They start off with an existing player base and setup and staff as substantial advantage -all they need to do is convince players to stay and patronise their new site.
FTP as a company is willing to accept a smaller 'price' for the company. I heard zero if the investor pays ALL players and their current DOJ fine LOL.
They agree that those proceeds go into the pot before they receive any left over sale proceeds/dividends. They agree to transfer all interest and associated software licenses e.t.c from any of the other shell companies in perpetuity - in return the software royalties will continue to be paid to that company. FTP gets the DOJ fine paid by the new investor and the sale proceeds and many of the employees continue to have a job and the primary consulting office is kept in Dublin so Dublin gains -they could agree to lower the rent or reduced taxes (will be lower as new FTP will be ~ non-profit till all parties are repaid) for a period in return to keeping the new company located there.
The investor and players will want top management gone and they will want to cut their risk and stand down as is standard when a company is strongly indicted. IMHO they only remain to broker a deal and/or not talk depending on one's view. I believe this has already been agreed in the last FTP statement.
Spnsored players and other that benefited from FTP either directly as top shareholders or inflated salaries/bonuses which it would seem were possibly not from company profits, offer to put up money to repay players and goes direct to the player trustee fund or if more substantial may be exchanged for minority shareholding in the new FTP. they agree to non-compete clauses in the poker business. They can say they put up money to pay players out their own pocket and if players get repaid they are unlikely to face lawsuits and stand better chance of dismissal motions.
Also there are other unknown risks - if alot of people owe you money it's just your problem - if you owe alot of people it's lots of problems for you. When we talk about thousands of players and DOJ and potentially other State prosecutors...
Top tier pros or as sponsored red pros put up some money as a function of their perceived or known role towards repaying players. Since poker celebrities depend on fans for publicity. Why would anyone in the future sponsor them if they have none or have anti-fans as the Koreans say
US DOJ and/or players/FTP appoint a trustee to pursue the significantly large shortfall ~118million from unprocessed funds from US players that would go a long way to repaying US and worldwide much faster. From anecdotal evidence there are honest players that want to pay but the money wasn't taken from their account. At the very least a 'donation' mechanism can be setup where honest players send to a trustee who in return will ensure that their FTP account is squared off and excluded form any litigation by any other parties. In a bankruptcy the information of those players will be highly valuable to other companies that wish to avoid these bad debt and higher transaction risk customers. Players that don't pay could find other poker companies(in a future expressly legal US scenario) and or current casinos get treated differently or barred. Writing a check without the intent to honour that payment is fraud and imoral imho.
The investor given these deferred payments in turn accepts to take a 'small' %profit until all parties are paid and then investor gains control of all the profits of the company. All these deferred payments reduce the initial cash outlay and the ROW player funds could be backed by a bank overdraft type facility that could be to the value of the total liabilities of ROW players (to fulfill AGCC regs for the ROW new FTP part) but won't necessarily be drawn on.
All the payments to parties are based off a function of FTP's profit thereby aligning all parties going forward. It operates in such manner until all parties are full paid and funded then it reverts to the investor/shareholders getting 100% of the profits of the company.
if you made it this far, now post some criticism improvements(that means lurkers too)
I agree with some things you say whilst disagreeing with others but dont feel qualified to judge your suggestions or what may or may not constitute a workable solution as its tough to provide answers without a lot more information too about the exact liabiities and position of FTP.
However I do believe that nothing should be written in tablets of stone and that all things should be negotiable from the DoJ fine to the AGCC funding reqirements and even deferment of US player liabilities if necessary - couldnt resist taking a dig back at those who thought Americans only should get paid and not the RoW;-)
09-04-2011
, 11:19 AM
Quote:
We shouldn't under-estimate another factor which can be called goodwill factor. If a investor bought FTP and paid everybody, I believe lots of regs will put in a lot of volume on the new site simply to show appreciation to the new owners. These people saved FTP and got your money back. I will be one of those people who will play much more than before on the new FTP just to show appreciation to the new owners. I am sure lots of other people will too. I believe the goodwill the new investors gain by paying everybody will generate them a lot of extra profit. And I believe the game on the new FTP will still be better than PS. Grinding more on the new site will make me more money too.
.
09-04-2011
, 11:22 AM
Thanks for taking the time to read u cnat spel.
That's interesting if 20 million would cover 90% of balances. I suspect it is more than that but your suggestion of allowing an initial withdrawal and costing much less than the total debt would drastically reduce the class of players in the deferred deal and make administration easier.
momo you make a good point - I think alot of regs andplayers will be very thankful and if given appropriate re-assurances will grind more than usual.
Fair enough it did take awhile to write tks also for taking the time to read.
I stand corrected on your link to investors - I actually meant it as a question but missed the question mark.
What points do you agree/disagree on or think are un-workable?
I would like to note some of those suggestions are unrefined and just there as a jumping off point to initiate constructive debate and are not a reflection of my personal opinion of what I think should be done by any party. I'm going to put the main thrust of my argument(that cnat spel gets) in quotes:
How this concept is implemented for all parties is the devil in the detail 
I do re-agree (is that word) the lack of information makes it hard to construct a workable schema.
Before I go, I'll just add we're already in September now and the poker season of increasing traffic after the summer lull leading up to the festive peak is starting..
I give October as the absolute latest by which if an investor/deal isn't done all parties are going to be standing around with egg on their face.
That's interesting if 20 million would cover 90% of balances. I suspect it is more than that but your suggestion of allowing an initial withdrawal and costing much less than the total debt would drastically reduce the class of players in the deferred deal and make administration easier.
momo you make a good point - I think alot of regs andplayers will be very thankful and if given appropriate re-assurances will grind more than usual.
Quote:
If you can be bothered to write it then I can be bothered to read it but I must correct you on an early comment you made in that I am not directly linked with any potential investor but I have spoken to several people who all chose not to get involved as they all thought there was a potential for too many headaches for an investment of this size.
I agree with some things you say whilst disagreeing with others but dont feel qualified to judge your suggestions or what may or may not constitute a workable solution as its tough to provide answers without a lot more information too about the exact liabiities and position of FTP.
However I do believe that nothing should be written in tablets of stone and that all things should be negotiable from the DoJ fine to the AGCC funding reqirements and even deferment of US player liabilities if necessary - couldnt resist taking a dig back at those who thought Americans only should get paid and not the RoW;-)
I agree with some things you say whilst disagreeing with others but dont feel qualified to judge your suggestions or what may or may not constitute a workable solution as its tough to provide answers without a lot more information too about the exact liabiities and position of FTP.
However I do believe that nothing should be written in tablets of stone and that all things should be negotiable from the DoJ fine to the AGCC funding reqirements and even deferment of US player liabilities if necessary - couldnt resist taking a dig back at those who thought Americans only should get paid and not the RoW;-)
tks also for taking the time to read.I stand corrected on your link to investors - I actually meant it as a question but missed the question mark.
What points do you agree/disagree on or think are un-workable?
I would like to note some of those suggestions are unrefined and just there as a jumping off point to initiate constructive debate and are not a reflection of my personal opinion of what I think should be done by any party. I'm going to put the main thrust of my argument(that cnat spel gets) in quotes:
Quote:
The key concept is instead of demands for NOW this amount has to be available or paid for this we spread and DEFER the payments out over time.
I do re-agree (is that word) the lack of information makes it hard to construct a workable schema.
Before I go, I'll just add we're already in September now and the poker season of increasing traffic after the summer lull leading up to the festive peak is starting..
I give October as the absolute latest by which if an investor/deal isn't done all parties are going to be standing around with egg on their face.
Last edited by munkey; 09-04-2011 at 11:26 AM.
Reason: P.S. you can PM me your reply if you so wish Hdemt
09-04-2011
, 11:29 AM
09-04-2011
, 11:36 AM
09-04-2011
, 11:44 AM
Quote:
I'm not sure it's been asked Harry, but is there any ideas as to what players can do collectively to help secure a deal? Seems like just in these forums alone there's probably a good amount of people with FT money locked up. If everyone banded together and acted I feel like something could be done to help further attract one of the possible investors. I mean even if we could get like 100+ people with a combined 5+million on the site to promise to keep playing there or not cash out over a certain amount then it would certainly help.
Seems like all of the collective action so far has been towards lawsuits and such. Is there nothing we can do to help lure in some investors? I'm not even sure it would be significant, but just something.
Seems like all of the collective action so far has been towards lawsuits and such. Is there nothing we can do to help lure in some investors? I'm not even sure it would be significant, but just something.
09-04-2011
, 12:01 PM
