It would basically mean FTP could never run again. I can't really see how the players would ever be above the other creditors with the amount of money left. So they go bankrupt, victories in court won't count for much.

You could always publish, then a few days later publish an analysis story.

So he wins, ftp goes bankrupt, what good does it do you?

I am not convinced on that. The rest of the world players are clearly more valuable to company than the US players (who are completely worthless and giant liability), which means it is sold in pieces( i don't know how possible this is) the ROW may get funds from new investor. I don't know how possible, if at all that is. I remember one of the earlier reports at the start suggested one investor was only interested in software + non-US player base. FTP declined wanting the US player base covered, however if they can't get an investor and parts are sold that deal might come back on the table.

Yeah. I think this is the main reason they filed on behalf of US players alone. Thanks, Terry! We appreciate what you did for us. The lawsuit will also put more pressure on the owners to get the deal done as none of them want to have their personal assets seized. So in this sense, it benefits all players, no matter you are located in US or not.

Not just your opinion. Anyone with any resemblance of moral fibre, logic and reason will draw the same conclusion.

Noah has explained very clearly many times why this cannot happen.

They might be in red, but at the default type size my old eyes don't detect colour. And some people are colour-blind and red is one of the colours most affected.

Yes, the links show up as links when you move a mouse over them. I'm suggesting a more user-friendly interface is one which identifies links without requiring the reader to send his mouse on a treasure hunt.

Accessible web design is becoming a more widespread requirement. I'm just suggesting that people as professional as those at S:P might want to consider design accessibility issues as an area in which they could make some improvements.

You're right, I thought the world would understand that the US player's situation is worse than the ROW player's with regard to getting "back on their feet". This is not a charity, and i'm sorry I expected any semblance of charity from the row considering the american online pro's situation. It was foolish of me. I am a rare exception in that if I were one of the ROW players, I would scoff at receiving 1cent on the dollar and say "give it to the guys who dont have a JOB anymore... i'll go put $10 of my current monies on pokerstars and get BACK TO WORK"

but i'm a more generous person I suppose.

Edit: ROW's probably think Americans are all rolling in dough, that we all drive big gas-guzzling cars and smoke Cuban cigars while mud wrestling with playboy bunnies. Not so. You are poor, I am poor, you can go make money online again, I can not.

You're stretching the truth and you know it.

Playing on small, extremely untrustworthy sites compared to playing on what was the #2 biggest site, with huge guaranteed tourneys running 24/7, is not at all the same. Not even in the same ball park. As for playing live, thats not the same ball park thats a completely different game entirely. As many people say "thats real poker" and well, I just dont have any experience playing live poker, and i'm guessing a lot of people who learned poker online like I did and started to make income from it are in a similar situation. You can't just flick a switch and become a pro live player. They are different beasts. Also, you wanna drive me the 2 hours to Atlantic City? You gonna pay for the hotel? You gonna pay for the expensive unhealthy food? Gas? Tolls? etc? Its not the same, stop pretending it is. I refuse to believe you are suddenly that ignorant as to suggest it is anywhere near as equitable to play live poker for a living as it was to play online on the #2 site.

Thank you for the information. I'm not very familiar with the legal aspects of all this. Either way I just e-mailed one of the lawyers who filed on behalf of the Canadians and asked some questions. I'll report back what I hear. It would be a real disgrace if the US players somehow snatched up all the money and there was nothing left for the ROW.

Oh and congrats to Mycology for being the second person I ever put on ignore. The first one was a guy with the most tilting avatar ever (david williams rubbing his titties), so Myco is actually the first guy to ever tilt me enough with his opinions that I feel the need to ignore.

Please show me where I'm stretching the truth.

I never once said it would be easy to make the same living playing on a smaller site, or that transitioning to live play wouldn't be difficult. But nor is it impossible.

And the rest of the world does not owe you the right to earn a living playing online poker.

When it comes to Ifrah quitting, could it be seen the following way?

1. If FTP gets a money injection from an investor the lawsuit will go away.
2. If FTP does not get a money injection from an investor they will not have money to pay him.

Either way there is no reason for him to be involved in it?

+1

There are all sorts of possible reasons, at least some of which have nothing to do with wishing to exclude the ROTW.

Perhaps the RICO damages could only be claimed by exclusively US plaintifs. Perhaps he thinks it unlikley that a class beyond US players could get certified. Perhaps the planning of the suit was done at a time when there was little reason for him to believe that ROTW funds were at risk.

We cannot conclude that queue-jumping was a goal of the suit. Perhaps it was merely something he was willing to live with and wasn't willing to take the effort or risk to avoid.

It's not so much that the US player base would be "snatching" up the remainder of what's left in the player pool. It's pretty much assumed that the player pool is exhausted. Rather, IMO the true value of the class action lies in pursuing the personal assets of FTP's founders/owners. The unfortunate (for the ROW) fact of the matter is US residents have the opportunity to go after these personal assets. If it comes down to that, would you expect the US player base to choose not to pursue a class action suit simply because we knew it would leave the ROW without any money? Rest assured if the opportunity is there, it will be taken.

Someone made a really good point a few posts up that these class action suits are putting a ton of pressure on the upper management at FTP. It's likely the largest single driving force behind encouraging the sale of FTP and avoiding bankruptcy. The ROW should be eagerly encouraging these class action suits.

Fair enough. I worded that kind of bitterly and apologize for that.

Nice word.

However, come on, it has been common practice since the early 2000s for gaming companies to lie to US banks in order to process payments. These lies amount to fraud - bank fraud. The didn't need 'omniscience!' There have been seizures related to this for almost every years since 2003 with a big one in 2009. Just common sense or a willingness not to look the other way. If you have been playing poker online since the early 2000s we are sure you are aware of this yourself.

Whether it's the cause for the exclusion of the ROW, it's definitely the case. The class action suit was clearly drafted before the AGCC shutdown of FTP, therefore there was never a reason to include anybody but the US player base.

Does anyone think Jeff quitting might of been a stalling tactic?

He is still representing on some matters right?

I would have to do a real search to find who exactly first posted the information you are referring to, but you have it almost correct.

Fact asserted: The IOM regulations require Player accounts to be clearly labelled as " (whatever) player account."

Fact: The court paperwork clearly names every account that the DOJ took action against, and even let us know which ones were related to PokerStars.

Fact: none of the accounts frozen included the language required by the IOM regulations.

So if the asserted fact is true (I have not seen a formal confirmation by the IOM regulators), then the DOJ did not seize any PokerStars controlled accounts which held the designated player accounts.

WHY the DOJ did not seize any such accounts is not a matter of public record ... but remember they did make a very public statement emphasizing that they had not seized/frozen "player accounts."

Skallagrim

Holy crap people, I know this is NVG, but come on already!

First, why the hell is everyone drawing lines in the sand as to who gets paid first all of a sudden? When the US players were locked out on BF, the ROW had opportunity to withdraw (which some did), to continue playing, or lol, to deposit! There were plenty of posts at the time saying haha Americans, too bad, but we still play. Then the AGCC finds that FTP have not enough funds to even handle ROW responsibly, shuts down the license, now it's "hey gimme some of whatever you get" or I am gonna take your Tonka truck?

You sound like a bunch of children, ffs.

Every single American player was free to try to make a claim against the seized funds by July 15. This was public knowledge, and posted on 2+2 and other places. The PPA even mailed out a guide to all members with some ideas. ONE person, ONE, filed such a claim. Afaik, he has not outed himself here in these forums, but I wish him good luck.

Phil Ivey files his lawsuit, everyone was either "get your grubby hands off our money" or "yay Phil, thanks for thinking of the players".That suit was subsequently dropped by PI. No one can be sure of his motives for filing or dropping it, its all speculation.
TT et al filed a class action suit alleging RICO violations in late June. To make a long story short, its on behalf those 4 individuals and all others similarly situated in the US who were being kept from their funds by FTP (The DOJ had given leave for FTP to pay up, but it never happened). This is a separate action and not a claim on the seized property. Who knows what will happen, the class isn't even certfied yet, but who knows, that may be the ONE chance that survives the test to get some money. Boo Hoo those lousy Americans trying to take all of FTP's money again!

Now it starts becoming clearer, gee maybe there really isn't much money to go around after all, but surely we can sue the AGCC!
Finally another class action was filed by 2 Canadian players, different allegations than the RICO, but its playing offense at least. AFAIK, those players have not outted themselves on these forums yet.

Now finally, people are starting to realize that this could be a heck of a lot worse than people wanted to believe. There have been plenty of leaks and hints and everything but copies of FTP's books opened up for NVG scrutiny (wouldn't that be something? lol). People are finally stopping the mantra of "just bring me back rush and I will play forever" or "I don't care about fraud, I love FTP software, and I will deposit again asap!".

Take a look in the reality mirror. The AGCC doesn't have your money, the DOJ doesn't have your money, the folks that filed lawsuits don't have your money. FTP and all their shareholders and partners are the ones responsible for all of your money. There are several ways this can play out, but it's not a dead end, not yet. With every transaction, every email, every phonecall, etc etc, there is a money trail.
It's the players job to make sure it doesn't go away easily. You should be joining forces instead of playing tug 'o war.

Stop acting like a bunch of crybabies, and inform yourselves on the facts, and stay informed.

Feel free to flame away, that is always so productive.

/end rant

Like I said earlier I am not familiar with how all the legal aspects come together in this case. Maybe that means I shouldn't voice my opinion until I know better though. Either way, when I said "snatching up the money" I was indeed referring to the personal assets as I was under the impression that ROW could also go after those. I thought ROW and US were equal in that matter, but that the US lawsuit would be first in line like someone mentioned earlier. If that was correct it does seem very unlikely there would anything left for ROW considering the the treble charges. If this is not the case then I see no issue at all. I have been very happy for these lawsuits the whole time, and I love the pressure it puts on the FTP execs. I guess I just got worried for a second that Myco's attitude was a prevailing one and feared that ROW would possibly get screwed over once more.

Not only is it not EASY to make the same living playing live poker, it is virtually -impossible- to play the same stakes and make the same return without multi-tabling. As for smaller sites, you admitted it yourself that you wouldn't trust them (I dont know if you played for a living) so why would I play on them and trust them, especially since I WAS playing for a living?

I know the world doesn't owe me ****. I just thought, considering how if I were a ROW I would rather see my 1cent on the dollar go to people in a worse situation, that maybe they'd feel the same. That was short sighted of me and foolish.

For the record, if I thought or knew the entire world could get an amount that is consequential and not negligible (from a FTP liquidation), even if that were just 10cents on the dollar, or certainly 25cents or 50cents, I would not suggest or even hint at them forfeiting that for the sake of "charity". 1cent on the dollar though... come on. If I were in their spot, i'd be more charitable. Again, foolish of me to expect anyone american or non-american to share that sentiment.

We would agree that they probably accounted for these transactions as you suggest. However, besides the fact that FTP would have been in violation of AGCC rules which require financial solvency (they have three specific rules you can find on their site), they were not acting in accordance with GAAP accounting for a gaming operation. Moreover, if they had any reason to believe that they may not be able to collect on these funds - ANY - then they should have been charged off - any proper accountant who watched these funds accumulate to the size they accumulated to without taking action or charging off some of the receivables was acting in an irresponsible fashion. This problem, according to their statement had been going on for a long time, why did FTP wait so long before addressing it or not properly account for it? Estimates are the player balances were around $300M, to let it get to the point where over 1/3 of your deposits are uncollected is absurd - not even the PPA can defend that action! The evidence is piling up that even if BF hadn't happened, that FTP may have had eventually faced a serious solvency issue due to all the issues it has now acknowledged publicly that it was facing if any more negative events had occurred (another seizure, another theft, etc..) it's not a stretch to make that statement if you think through the numbers.

We do not believe poker is illegal, just as we dont think pornography is! However, there are many local jurisdictions who (at least in the case of pornography and poker) have chosen to pass laws against it - that is a fact.

But the fact is that American is a puritan country and democratic country, FTP and PS and many of the others didn't play by the rules and they blatantly broke US laws (you can say it remains to be proven, but we will happily point you to at least one plea agreement by a former FTP payment processor acknowledging guilt). You are welcome to defend their actions or the actions of PS, but the evidence is damning and we doubt this will ever see a court room.

Your organization is at least trying to work through the process of changing the laws - so good on you for following democratic principals and not breaking the law.

However, if you are going to change the laws then correct the real issues about online poker. Get good regulation with real teeth that not only holds owners accountable, but players or owners who cheat, affiliates and media companies (or poker sites) whose media tactics entice kids to play or software companies that make and sell a host of cheating tools - then you may have done something useful for Poker.

Perhaps I was not clear. The chance of the US players getting more than what they are owed and the ROTW getting 0 is only unlikely because there probably isn't enough left to give the US players all they lost. In that event the ROTW still get 0. If the TT suit is successful, US players may get something and ROTW players will likely get nothing from a US court.

If ROTW players want any award of assets at all, then they either have to win their own separate US suit and that suit has to have at least equal precedence with a RICO award, or they have to go after assets in other countries.

More imporatantly, for players to get any assets at all, there have to be assets left over after the DOJ in rem suit is disposed of.

Liked your post but the part about DOJ having money is incorrect. Because of the way FTP tied the accounts within the company, technically, the DOJ did seize player account money. Of course, it's mismanaged by the origins (FTP), but technically, the DOJ did seize the player funds.

That's what I would have thought too, except the other class action suit is being brought by two Canadians, and we haven't heard of it being thrown out yet. Also, the lawyers for the Canadians are an experienced US class-action firm. It seems unlikely to me that they'd sign on for a case that had no hope of certification.

Perhaps it's RICO that makes the difference. The Canadians' suit doesn't mention RICO.

Any US lawyers here wanna comment on issues of standing?

Funny but not to long ago you were asking RoW players to put more money into an apparent ponzy scheme just so you could get paid. You're consistent, but somehow you just don't strike me as the generous and charitable type.

Now I'm not that charitable either, but if you're this good at poker I'd be gald to buy you a plane ticket and even pay one month rent for you if so you can move to europe and play poker in exchange for a typical staking arangment. Of course, first I do need to see a PT graph of how long it took you to grind from $50 to where you could pay your bills just from the monthly profit of course. Our else you can just send me your alias so I can look it up myslef because I don't want to just make this investment if it will take over a year to get any ROI.

But I think the reality is that all players should rather use that $50 to pay for food than grind stg's because even the best players in the wolrd that tried this experiment need about a year without making any withdrawals to just build a roll to where they could make enough in monthly profits to support themselves... so on what is anyone supposed to survive on during that time?

Whie most of us may be above avg players I certainly doubt that you (or anyone else for that matter) can take $50 and trun it into a survivable source of income within a month. If you're an exception and did so, and resonably think you can again, than by all means please post your screen name and/or PT stats and I or other players may well be willing to stake you.