Mycology, if you are basing your entire argument on the fact that non-US players can still play poker, that makes zero sense.

1) There are still US facing sites US players can play on if they want to play online.

2) US players can still play live in the US.

3) US players can move - if poker was a career for you, and you were earning a decent amount, then moving is also a viable option.

And if you are a US player and none of those options are available to you because you had 90%+ of your worth on FTP (and man, I'm sorry for everyone in that boat), that still doesn't make you special. Plenty of non-US players are pretty much in an identical situation in terms of roll tied up - the only difference is that they have a choice of more online sites (and the only one I personally would trust right now).

So your entire argument is based on really nothing more than your greed. You've made your opinion clear, but telling the rest of the world that they deserve less for their account balances is borderline trolling behavior.

For those who have been offended, please understand that very few Americans want to see anyone else screwed in all of this.

Not sure how you missed this earlier, but here it is again. Directly quoted from the class action suit:

No, I'm sharing my opinion.
I wanted to find a "don't mess with my hope!" picture to post but I can't find one so I'll just post this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLjyo51qmrI (pretty unrelated unfortunatly )

Yeah, again, I would need a lawyer to 100% confirm, but I don't think non-US players could be included in the Terry lawsuit.

Just shut up already. It's irrelevant that we still have the opportunity to play online poker and you don't. The money FTP owes is OUR money, why should you be given my money without my consent? Even if it's just 1c/$, your argument is absurd.

Are you saying Canada's laws are changing because of this, or are you just saying that it sucks we got our rolls frozen? U got me scared..

Yeah, I was going from the pleadings of the motion to withdraw, I never read the actual statement of claim. My bad.

This...and it's not borderline...he's either blatantly trolling or he truly believes what he's saying. If it's the latter, I feel very sorry for him.

a) It is not my job to educate you on the correct use of the English language, but for the record, "We" can be correctly used the way we use it and its called a nosism. We acknowledge its unusual and perhaps archaic, but its not incorrect either.
b) The DOJ has indicted the 'owners' of PS, FTP and AB/UB on charges including bank fraud. A simple search of the internet will point you to copies of the indictments, but this link will clarify it for you: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...dictmentpr.pdf

I believe some of the FTP bank accounts frozen were located offshore to US e.g Switzerland, maybe UK etc.

These accounts are still frozen, not seized.

I wouldn't over estimate the US powers in taking full ownership (seize em) of said accounts if it is evident those accounts do not hold US funds.

Either the DoJ are slow in processing funds from frozen to seized, or they will need to convince foreign governments they are 'due' these monies before they are 'seizable'

London doesn't become the worlds biggest and most reputable financial centre without safeguarding its bank account holders. Likewise Switzerland has a reputation for being a solid banking centre.

Let's hope US relations are as good as the noted minority believe they are

A couple of days ago he suggested poker players make the same kind of contribution to society as poets and philosophers.

I feel very sorry for him, too.

Is there anything in the way of any ROW-player basically showing the TT lawsuit to a top lawyer in for example Europe and ask him to take on the same case on a contingency basis?

With all due respect, (and only because you are a mod, and one who's posts I usually agree with) but

you failed yourself.

You tell me to go play on sites facing US players, and then you admit a few lines later that you yourself wouldn't even trust those sites. Of course I dont trust those sites, I didn't trust them Pre-BF and I sure as hell dont trust them post-BF if they continue to operate for Americans despite whats going on. Any American who is playing online poker for money on those sites obviously does not care at all about his money.

Your #1 /#2 are basically the same, unless by #2 you mean I should go play live... LOL @ live play. Yeah, i'm gonna go from multi tabling 60+ hands per hour on each table to 1 table 25 hands per hour. Thats like going from being a Tennis pro and people expecting that tennis pro to be pro at PING PONG. I am not a PING PONG player I am a TENNIS player. Live play is completely different, and rotting away in a casino is probably the worst existence imaginable. #3, moving to another country and setting up shop takes way more than just a couple grand, or at least the money I have. I've been paying for my life off my savings since BF. If I lived in the ROW I wouldn't even be here, like I said i'd be grinding $1 sng's if thats what it took.

Let me make it clear, I dont WANT anyone to be screwed. Like I said I want everyone to be paid every penny they are owed, and I even wish we could get some extra pennies owed for all the FTP points / medals / whatever. Its almost certainly not going to happen. Its not because i'm -american- that I think I / we should get paid, its because we have lost our livelihood. Those who made their livelihoods from the ROW STILL have their livelihood. I dont understand what is so hard about that to comprehend.

Whether Myco's argument makes sense or not, this could be the one of the most short sighted and worst counter points I've ever read. Jfs.

There is already a class action for all players: http://pokerfuse.com/news/law-legisl...nst-full-tilt/

Can somone please confirm this. It certainly makes sense based on the Withdraw Motion filed in court, but I was prety sure that he was Ray's lawyer in the civil case, and assumed FTP and most of the other defendants as well since I hadn't heard anything about most getting independednt counsel.

Yes, but I believe there are some differences, for example the RICO charges for treble damages etc. What if I'd like to basically copy TT's lawsuit? Is there anything stopping me?

It is -EXTREMELY- relevant to online poker players who played for a living

if they CAN or CAN NOT play anymore. This is insanity.

I lost my job AND my money. You just lost your money. Get it now? Jesus christ...


I felt the same way, but I think SGT was just trying to calm the ROW players who are getting infuriated by my statements. I can't blame them for being mad, but for them to be pretending like it doesn't make a difference that they can still play on the largest and most reliable online poker site in the world... thats just ridiculously ignorant. Especially if they were / still are playing for a living.

That is a fair question. However, it wasn't my job to regulate them, it was various regulators jobs. Part of good regulation is making sure that your companies are in compliance with not only the laws of your jurisdiction, but of the jurisdictions they are operating under. It was painfully clear that the Safe Port act was passed in 2006 and that in order for Party Poker to get payments processed that had to resort to all sorts of chicanery for which they later admitted. Franky, we doubt there are many players who didn't know what was going on, so if they players knew, the regulators should have as well. So, at least by 2006, they should have been questioning PS on their practices and how they were able to transact in the US.

My understand based on TT's statements is that RICO requires that the defendants are part of a criminal enterprise. It's unlikely this would apply to players outside this US as none of the BF charges allege that FTP committed crimes outside the US.

What you aren't getting is that just because you can't play on pokerstars, it does not mean we owe you our frozen money.

This is just amazing.

I agree that we know very little for certain in this case.

However, I think we have a fair degree of confidence that both the IOM GSC and PS have effectively said the player funds remained segregated and not frozen. Occam would seem to say that segregated funds operating as they were supposed to was more likely the reason for the prompt payouts than some parallel pool of hundreds of $M whose existence and purpose was unknown.

I doubt that an IOM-based regulator can assign to itself the task of enforcing the laws of foreign countries. It is an interesting question as to whether a regulatory body should require a licencee to be in compliance with the laws of all countries in which the licensee operates and also how the regulator would enforce such a requirement. If an argument could be made that operation contrary to the laws of a country puts player funds at risk then it is logical that legal compliance in foreign countries could be a licence term. However the segregation and protection of player funds would seem to nearly eliminate any such risk, so there would seem to be no need for such a license requirement.

I think it is quite unlikely that the IOM GSC knew that the DOJ was actively going after PS for bank fraud. They were probably aware that the DOJ had made assertions about the legality of online poker in the US, but they would also be aware of the fact that this was not a settled matter. A DOJ pronouncement does not make the law. IMO, without the bank faud, the DOJ has a doubtful case. The IOM GSC would not have known about the bank fraud.

must...not...feed...troll
lolthread

kbye

His argument for stating that US players deserve more (if worst comes to worse) is predicated on the idea that US players have lost their livelihood. My response was aimed at showing, no, US players have not lost their livelihood, not necessarily.

Professional poker in the US is certainly more difficult now, whether you want to play live and either risk a smaller site or move, or try to make a living in live play. But it's not impossible; saying that US players have had the opportunity to play poker for a living taken away from them is simply not true.

Most people change careers now several times in the life. People lose their jobs for all kinds of reasons; downsizing, the poor economy, their company moves, their skills become obsolete. Does all that suck? Absolutely, no one likes losing their job, and many millions of people, not just poker players, face some of the choices US online professionals face now (find a new job? move to where I might be able to do my old job? transfer my skills into a similar field?), so while the reasons behind US online professionals losing their job may be somewhat unique, their situation is really anything but.

Saying US players deserve more for their bankrolls just because they can't play poker exactly the way they used to before BF is absolutely ridiculous. In my opinion.

How is that my problem? It's still my money and if we get something back I should get my piece equally as ANYONE else. This is not a charity.