That's great for Howard, but how does that show he's helping to try rectify the situation.. How about he gets off his ass and tries to work out a deal rather than sitting at home and having a cry because of his inability to run a business. God does stupidity run through all of the Lederer/Duke genes?

Pay taxes on money that the DOJ froze, seized, stole, found?? Sounds so stupid that it's scary! Lawyers up please! Got to be level!

Should also be somewhere on twitter Phil ivey dropped the lawsuit and erased traces of it on his twitter acct.

Thanks to everyone who helped put together those cliffs. Keeping track of this whole saga is a giant pain it the ass.

Still waiting to here anything of relevance, but you can put me in the pessimistic crowd. I believe there's a 25% chance or less of everyone getting paid, although I certainly hope I'm wrong.

Lol, I didn´t have money there on FTP. Tell me one serious source where FTP found an investor or just near like 1%?! Ups, you can´t...:-)

There's so many sick aspects to this whole thing but one of the sickest has to be that it doesn't seem like FTP knows exactly what they even owe everybody thanks to the whole payment processing snafu.

How many accounts have inflated balances due to all of the fake deposits people were making?

Good luck sorting out that whole mess. Hopefully that's what they've been working on with all of their down time the last few months.

x-post

Looking in the rear view mirror - the NETELLER case

Apologies for the delay but I've been busy and this took much longer than anticipated to put together than I originally envisaged.

This is where Howard spends his depressed days:
http://www.cardking.info/artikel.asp?id=214

Just to get an idea of where our money went.

His exact words when I asked him yesterday were, 'Almost done, hoping to still post tonight'.

He is a bit confused as to what 2 plus 2 is and not sure how it works, initially he thought it was a blog. I explained to him what it's all about. '2 plus 2 is a forum with many threads containing mostly poker related discussions which takes place between the 2 plus 2 members. So you would have to register with email verification etc to first become a member and then be able to post in the forum.'

He said that 'I am just always traveling and prefer direct email. I am worried that because I am not always logged in to the forum, I may not be able to respond to folks as quickly as I like and they might be offended. But I guess I can't expect everyone to email me either. Not sure what to do. I will ask Noah.'

I explained to him that if there is a closed thread, with further questions from people, he could answer them in his own time. I put forward your suggestion of JeffTP as a username to him if he does register and linked him to a 2 plus 2 app for his Android. I told him that i'll talk him through setting up an account if he wants. So still not sure if he himself is going to post but we'll see.

Why do you keep saying/suggesting that they will be telling us something again real soon?

sry , maybe i missed something but have noticed you saying this more than one occasion lately.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=3077

maybe saturday, or sunday...

The Colorful Cast of Characters Part I: Ira Rubin

thanks for the detailed article Diamond_Flush over @ Subject:Poker
He certainly is a rogue colourful character , but when you have a grey prohibition legal situation the more Mos Eisley type people will get involved

So far I have these questions, if you or anyone else wouldn't mind answering:

re: relief defendant

Is this a bit like innocently unknowingly buying/receiving stolen goods and having to forfeit the property but exempt from prosecution (unless the crown/state prosecutor can show you knew or paid cheaply)?

Would this apply to the top-tier FTP shareholders with no day to day management of the company, if they received 'dividends'/renumerations when FTP was below AGCC liquidity ratios and these funds were therefore not disgorged from profits?

I understand the criminal part but what civil offense is committed in this event and what remedies does the civil court have at it's disposal?
Maybe I'm just tired and being slow

The trustee in the Madoff case has recovered ~$31bill of the $60bill that was lost.

Personally my last hope is Jack Binion (although I know that Hdemet wrote that he isn’t still interested)

I think he should be interested because:
- He should have enough financial resources
- Imo because he is American he has the best chances to settle with the DOJ
- I don’t think that he must be concerned to lose his reputation. Indeed I think he would increase his reputation in the poker world by saving FTP
- I think he has some implied odds, because when the American market opens again, I think he could get a license with FTP, which would be the nuts for him.

Maybe the 2+2 members should make a petition or write him a letter.

@kingkong
So write him a letter and anyone who wants to sign can do so.

Holy ****, this guy is a long term con man and scammer.

Take it to Rick, Corey, and Chumlee in LV they are always ready to give top dollar for one of a kind items I hear!

today

That was a long time ago when the M's and G's told us FTP has some minor problems and was a bit short on cash.
Turns out these problems were company deep and pretty big. Also the shortfall of money was more like total and the oportunity to fool the occasional recreational player passed because they must have tried to deposit their salary already.

In US law it is quite possible to go back and undo what are effectively considered "sham" transactions. In the Rubin case what the Govt did in making Mrs. Rubin a "relief defendant" was contend that the $250K life insurance policy was a sham transaction based on the fact that it was paid for entirely by Mr. Rubin with tainted funds (illegal proceeds). Essentially the point, at least as applied in that case, was that you cannot turn illegal proceeds into legitimate wealth simply by giving them to someone else, especially someone related (and yet there are even exceptions to this).

Where the transaction is a purchase rather than a gift, the question is whether the purchaser is a "bone fide purchaser for value." And in the context of forfeiture law, whether the purchaser was aware that the item was subject to forfeiture

These principles would not apply to FTP's shareholders as the ability to go after shareholders uses a very different legal standard. People have previously discussed what is needed to "pierce the corporate veil" and establish shareholder liability. That is a very complex procedure and whether it can be done with respect to FTP's shareholders would require a law review article rather than a forum post. And, at least at this point, it would also require a fair bit of speculation about the actual facts. It is also very possible that some shareholders could be found liable and others not, for example.

Skallagrim

This new information hurts.

Does anyone else feel like Ivey deserves to have a huge amount of animosity based on this claim of him completely ****ing the possibility of getting an investor? I can't help but feel like his roll has been one of sick greed and I am disgusted about his level of integrity. He completely took advantage of the entire online community by putting himself first before his entire community of followers.

-Omni

I apologize if this has already been discussed, but say FTP is unable to find an investor and pay the players back on it's own, what will the DoJ do with the seized/fined money from FTP? It would be so sick if the DoJ just pockets it and the players end up with nothing.

Bumping for attention

Basically minesweeper.

I have no idea if this is a close parallel, but I just watched a doc on a failed 1980's video game company and when they were very close to bankruptcy the few employees left spent all day playing video games and drinking at the office. They eventually went bust due to bad management and financial leveraging.