1.1m pts = 5k$ bonus which is actually 3.75k$ or so because of MGR stuff...

Agree.

I would hope we get cash, but even if we are stuck buying things from the FTP store, of which I want nothing, I would consider that fair. But leaving them out all together or saying some BS like we'll keep them if US players are allowed back in the future, which was an option that FTPDoug brought up post BF, would be trash.

No offense sir, but how do you know this to be a fact? You state it like it is a fact?

I'm not a lawyer--I used to be.

I'm not certain points are contractual. It's actually an interesting point.

At the minimum, if they are not an express contract, they are an implied contract, but we suppose you must have received a TOS with your Black Card about how points can be used. We dont see how the points are any different then amounts owed affiliates, essentially it's cash reward system for playing (or a revenue share). These are liabilities the same way affilate payments are liabilities. They have to honor them - of course they might not, but as stated above, this would be shooting themselves in the foot.

The points issue has 2 interesting sides to it. First off the points are essentially worthless - FTP is in no way required to honor these at cash value (similar to frequent flier miles and all that crap), it is/was part of FTP's rewards program which they are also not required to provide to customers.

However since FTP did issue these points and allowed purchases from their store with them they should be allowed to be used to buy things from the FTP store, if there is nothing you want or you have left over points then thats too bad. For example if your 5k bonus is 1.1 mil points and you have 1.099 mil points then you are not entitled to $4,999 but are entitled to 1.099 mil points worth of stuff from their store. Furthermore if FTP does not have enough merchandise in stock to fill all orders then a 3rd option where points can be converted to $ needs to be available

Extradition hearings in Iteland are not secret!

If the US had taken any actions to have him extradited, the first step would have to be a very public arrest.

How do you know this? Actually as we understand it, until the order is granted they are private. You can check this out by visiting the high court website where only information is shown from granted hearings (nothing is available prior to the order). Until it is granted and an arrest warrant is issued they are not public.



Actually your point about FF miles has not always been correct, until the TOS were changed there were lawsuits over them. It all depends on the agreement between FTP and the players, but we think those points are valid for both the store and cash (since that was allowed). Remember, they are buying FTP just the way it was when you last played there - possibly short a bunch of employees and tarnished reputation, but legally its the same business as when you last played there. But regardless, they have to honor them for other reasons, far more importnat, like getting players to come back and play and for credibility reasons. As much as we all want to cash out, they want you to keep your money there and PLAY!

No, I received no such tos. Moreover, it would not address the points I accumulated before getting the black card.

I'm not arguing they can renege on points--I'm simply saying I am unsure whether ft is contractually liable to pay out their value. I just don't know.

Dude, it's NV and "gossip".

I don't think it would be fair to some players to just get their bankrolls and not the EV in points.

Personally I have more in points than cash in FTP; 2.6m points (I don't even remember now but I think I calculated that at around $10,000) and $6,000 in cash.

If you have a rakeback deal they worth less but still a lot. However you would still need to clear any bonus you bought with points/medals and generate more rake in the process than the value of the bonus. (this may not be hold for ring game tickets though).
In any case I don't think FTP should allow US players to trade their points for cash. They should either let them buy items from the store or let them keep the points in case FTP enters the US market again. Also FTP can depreciate FTP points if they want to in order to avoid paying too much. They have done so in the past.

Did Stars pay for points too?

Yea Stars allowed players to exchange points for $$$. Of course, Stars also paid the players what was in their real money accounts, so I'm not really sure how pertinent this analogy is.

LOL at FT ever getting back into the US market.

Extradition hearings in Ireland follow the usual rules of criminal procedure. Pretty sure that means a public hearing in the entire western world.

If you show me a specific rule of Irish criminal procedure that specifies that extradition hearings are secret, I'll believe it; otherwise, I assume they are treated iaw standard Irish crim pro.

Skall is only incorrect if the MOJ received an extradition request and either denied it or failed to act on it.

Maybe they should pay then...if they can. I don't think points should worth more than 30M in total. Non-regs and new players don't have that many points.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en...m_ireland.html

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1965/...017/index.html (this is the statute that RB falls under. Its is possible that the request has not been approved yet. If you read section 26, the govt can review it).

My point is that unless someone hear knows whether the DOJ has requested or not (and they made a statement that they are working with interpole, so one would assume they have made such a request, although they have not said clearly as such to our knowledge), then you cannot say that this is not working through channels at this point. It is clear from reading this act that the DOJ would have to provide a significant brief to show dual criminality and a determination could take some time - the arrest warrant would not be issued until it was approved and since this is diplomatic channels, this part would not be public.

My dear goodness the lengths people go to to try and prove a point in an online "argument"... You and vamoose would make quite the little couple!

Basically correct.

Efforts to ARREST people sought to be extradited can be conducted in secret. This is done to ensure that the suspect does not have time to flee to yet another country.

But Bitar (at least - there is far less news about Burtnick) seems quite findable and arrestable anytime the Irish authorities choose to do so. So there is little reason for the process, if the US has actually requested it, to be delayed and kept secret.

An Irish lawyer would have to say whether there is some provision in Irish law that allows police authorities to not act on a properly filed extradition request. If such a provision is allowed under Irish law, it is highly unusual.

The usual procedure is for the police to act immediately on an extradition request and bring the suspect before the local court. The local court than analyzes the validity of the request (and whether the suspect should be held or bailed pending that court determination) pursuant to local court procedure. These court proceedings, as Mpethybridge correctly notes, are uniformly public proceedings in the Western world (and in most of the rest of the world too).

So the only way initiation of an extradition request by the US DOJ against Bitar would still be secret would indeed be if the Irish police authorities are both refusing to act on a request and not publicizing their refusal.

Skallagrim

Its merely a factual discussion. We all want to make sure that we have the correct information, especially when it's available. If wrong, then I want to learn I am wrong. Don't you?

I once again point you to the Irish Act:http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1965/...int.html#sec10

Because there is not treaty between the US and Ireland, this is governed by the 1965 Act. The first part of this Act, requires a political process not a court initiated one (sections 25 & 26) which would not be public, once arrested, that's a different process. The High Court only handles the process once the request has cleared political channels.

So I ask again, how do you know that the DOJ has not taken the first step and presented briefs in support of these sections to the authorities which under Section 25 & 26 are not under review? Show me how this is incorrect or please site your knowledge or source?

Under this section of the law you linked: "26.—(1) If the Minister receives a request made in accordance with this Part for the extradition of any person he shall, subject to the provisions of this section, by order signify to a justice of the District Court that the request has been made and the justice shall issue a warrant for the arrest of that person." it seems that if the US has properly filed the paperwork the Irish Police have no choice but to institute the proceedings to arrest the suspect and begin the formal and public court proceedings on whether the actual extradition should take place.

And so it appears that the only reason this would not have occurred if the DOJ has actually filed the proper forms is if the Irish Police cannot find Mr. Bitar.

Public reports seem to indicate that Mr. Bitar is pretty easy to find.

But again, this is Irish law and I do not pretend to be an expert in Irish law. Perhaps you can find a provision that allows the Irish authorities to determine IN ADVANCE OF A COURT HEARING whether the extradition request is legitimate (as opposed to merely properly filed).

Skallagrim

And please note, this is not a discussion of DOJ intent. I am of the opinion that the DOJ would seek to extradite Mr. Bitar if it can. I am merely speculating that the DOJ has not as yet sought to actually extradite Mr.Bitar from Ireland because it is not sure it can succeed with the request in that country. Perhaps they are simply waiting for him to be found in a country with a less complex extradition law. The DOJ followed a similar pattern in the case of the UK executives of a UK sports betting company accepting US bets.

We have read this Act pretty carefully. Look at:

" 23.—A request for the extradition of any person shall be made in writing and shall be communicated by—

(a) a diplomatic agent of the requesting country, accredited to the State, or

(b) any other means provided in the relevant extradition provisions."

That's a political process. This is what happens BEFORE it goes to the High Court. First the politicians decide if it goes forward. Once it is at the High Court, then it's public.

It's not like RB has murdered someone. He is being indicted on Fraud and ML and most likely his passport has been revoked (just a guess). Political processes like this can take many many months and also in the act is the requirement for dual criminality, which may be somewhat ambiguous to argue and could very likely be under review. Finally, I doubt that RB is a priority to the Irish at this point and you can bet they want PK sold and saved - so arresting him an endangering hundreds of jobs couldn't be a politically popular thing to do right now in a country with double digit unemployment.

Your logic that just because he hasn't been arrested is a fallacious argument that ignores the facts and the law and the processes involved here. You cannot make assumptions based on his availably to the garda (police) or time passed.

Your points are not incorrect, but you seem to misunderstand the way in which the considerations plays out.

Making a properly filed request by a diplomat is mere formality and does not take 5 months.

If the request is made in proper form it seems to me that Irish law then requires the proceedings to formally begin with issuance of a warrant for the arrest of the suspect.

It is of course always possible that the Irish police have such a warrant and are simply not acting on it, but I have to wonder why such would be the case.

Once the warrant is executed and the suspect arrested THEN the formal legal proceedings begin that address whether the extradition is actually in accord with Irish law. And this is done publicly through an adversary process in the courts.

Again it is possible Irish Prosecution authorities have told the Irish police not to act on the warrant because they wont support it in Court. But then one wonders why such a conclusion is being held in secret.

Skallagrim

I was about to post some links, but that would be redundant. Here is one tho, that shows sometimes it is done in secret:
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-16025468.html

As far as RB or anyone else is concerned, I am sure if they wanted them, all they have to do is revoke passports (assuming they have none other).

Tbh, I would rather see the money get paid out to the players...anything else can come later.

Aside from DF's comment. This is my final word on this. You havent read the Act very clearly. An application is required, but the ministers have lots of leeway and this is not an open and shut case (as has been pointed out many times), first the politicians need to decide on if they wish to refer it to the High Court - there is noting in the Act that requires them to do that....and we can see at least one very good reason why they wouldn't be in a rush - saving 100s of PK jobs for one, but there could be many others...

BTW - once it is referred, then it could easily take a year for it to be heard and ordered.

Revoking the Passport works as long as RB doesn't have another one. And speaking to that point...if RB got an Irish Passport (which he surely could have gotten), then read this:

"14.—Extradition shall not be granted where a person claimed is a citizen of Ireland, unless the relevant extradition provisions otherwise provide."