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*** February 2018 High Stakes Thread *** *** February 2018 High Stakes Thread ***

02-08-2018 , 06:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeckbeck
What is it that makes someone a bot and not a bot? What do they do? Always interests me why some players are constantly accused. But big winners like Baron are never.
OTB and Linus both had PGC threads here back when they were playing midstakes, so they are the people's champs.
02-08-2018 , 06:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeckbeck
What is it that makes someone a bot and not a bot? What do they do? Always interests me why some players are constantly accused. But big winners like Baron are never.
basically playing a complex strat really well and rarely using exploitative stuff

when ppl talk about bots in highstakes, they dont usually mean that its an actual program running without a person clicking buttons, but more of a person running realtime "helper" on the side.

also, eastern europe

Last edited by doctor877; 02-08-2018 at 06:28 AM.
02-08-2018 , 01:08 PM
I'm getting back into poker after a long hiatus and wow, some of these hand histories are insane to me. Like when limit hold'em was solved and people were doing all kinds of crazy ****. To a fish like me it looks borderline ******ed, but later everyone found out it was all correct.
02-08-2018 , 01:12 PM
From what I have studied the small stakes bots.

A bot can have very high flop cb % but low xf %. Also it's hard to find auto-profit bluff spots vs the bots since they balance their range automatically (which is very annoying!).
Humans typically end up in 2 categories:

- Those people who balance to protect their range and end up having like 45% flop cbet but low xf %
- people who cbet a lot but have rly high flop xf %¨

It's ridiculous to assume that small stakes player would have it all figured out and be unexploitable in any given spot. When you add multiway to the equation it's so ****ing ridiculous.
Human may xf 90% of the time multiway, but the bot always has some calling hand figured out.

So the best sign of a bot would be that there is no human error involved. High stakes are different since you probably play 4 tables on average and can put more thought into spots.

You could suspect someone runs a "helper" on the side if they never seem to make error postflop. OBORRA had that one bvb T5o hand where he shoved river and according to solver that would have been an okay bluff. That kind of stuff would be suspicious.
02-08-2018 , 01:15 PM
I heard from a reliable source that iborra was a Romanian farmer following the GTO guidelines
02-08-2018 , 02:30 PM
PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $25/$50 - 4 players
Replay this hand on Pokeit

ja.sam.gale (UTG): $5,510.19 (110 bb)
Iimitless (BU): $5,172.66 (103 bb)
Bit2Easy (SB): $5,100.00 (102 bb)
mustang239 (BB): $1,438.50 (29 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($75)
1 fold, Iimitless (BU) raises to $125, Bit2Easy (SB) 3-bets to $475, 1 fold, Iimitless (BU) calls $350

Flop: ($1,000) 5 2 9 (2 players)
Bit2Easy (SB) bets $309.38, Iimitless (BU) raises to $847.76, Bit2Easy (SB) raises to $1,521.14, Iimitless (BU) calls $673.38

Turn: ($4,042.28) 7 (2 players)
Bit2Easy (SB) checks, Iimitless (BU) checks

River: ($4,042.28) 9 (2 players)
Bit2Easy (SB) bets $3,103.86 (all-in), Iimitless (BU) calls $3,103.86

Total pot: $10,250 (Rake: $2)

Showdown:
Bit2Easy (SB) shows K 9 (three of a kind, Nines)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 47%, Flop: 91%, Turn: 0%, River: 0%)

Iimitless (BU) shows 7 7 (a full house, Sevens full of Nines)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 53%, Flop: 9%, Turn: 100%, River: 100%)

Iimitless (BU) wins $10,248
02-08-2018 , 06:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayox
I heard from a reliable source that iborra was a Romanian farmer following the GTO guidelines
release the memo
02-08-2018 , 09:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishtankz
From what I have studied the small stakes bots.

A bot can have very high flop cb % but low xf %. Also it's hard to find auto-profit bluff spots vs the bots since they balance their range automatically (which is very annoying!).
Humans typically end up in 2 categories:

- Those people who balance to protect their range and end up having like 45% flop cbet but low xf %
- people who cbet a lot but have rly high flop xf %¨

It's ridiculous to assume that small stakes player would have it all figured out and be unexploitable in any given spot. When you add multiway to the equation it's so ****ing ridiculous.
Human may xf 90% of the time multiway, but the bot always has some calling hand figured out.

So the best sign of a bot would be that there is no human error involved. High stakes are different since you probably play 4 tables on average and can put more thought into spots.

You could suspect someone runs a "helper" on the side if they never seem to make error postflop. OBORRA had that one bvb T5o hand where he shoved river and according to solver that would have been an okay bluff. That kind of stuff would be suspicious.
not true.. you are right about oborra though. Its a person using some sort of real time stuff
02-09-2018 , 04:35 AM
PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $25/$50 - 4 players
Replay this hand on Pokeit

LLinusLLove (UTG): $8,035.17 (161 bb)
NLZWERVERNL (BU): $18,536.46 (371 bb)
Iimitless (SB): $17,606.48 (352 bb)
OtB_RedBaron (BB): $7,861.24 (157 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($75)
1 fold, NLZWERVERNL (BU) raises to $100, Iimitless (SB) calls $75, OtB_RedBaron (BB) 3-bets to $565.75, NLZWERVERNL (BU) calls $465.75, 1 fold

Flop: ($1,231.50) 8 5 3 (2 players)
OtB_RedBaron (BB) bets $1,473.77, NLZWERVERNL (BU) calls $1,473.77

Turn: ($4,179.04) T (2 players)
OtB_RedBaron (BB) bets $1,848.62, NLZWERVERNL (BU) calls $1,848.62

River: ($7,876.28) 7 (2 players)
OtB_RedBaron (BB) checks, NLZWERVERNL (BU) checks

Total pot: $7,876.28 (Rake: $2)

Showdown:
OtB_RedBaron (BB) shows J Q (high card, Queen)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 62%, Flop: 44%, Turn: 64%, River: 0%)

NLZWERVERNL (BU) shows 9 7 (a pair of Sevens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 38%, Flop: 56%, Turn: 36%, River: 100%)

NLZWERVERNL (BU) wins $7,874.28





PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $25/$50 - 4 players
Replay this hand on Pokeit

Mescarl (UTG): $4,921.68 (98 bb)
Iimitless (BU): $5,105.68 (102 bb)
Bit2Easy (SB): $13,445.63 (269 bb)
OtB_RedBaron (BB): $5,000.00 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($75)
1 fold, Iimitless (BU) raises to $125, 1 fold, OtB_RedBaron (BB) 3-bets to $637, Iimitless (BU) calls $512

Flop: ($1,299) 9 A 8 (2 players)
OtB_RedBaron (BB) checks, Iimitless (BU) checks

Turn: ($1,299) 3 (2 players)
OtB_RedBaron (BB) checks, Iimitless (BU) checks

River: ($1,299) Q (2 players)
OtB_RedBaron (BB) checks, Iimitless (BU) bets $431.90, OtB_RedBaron (BB) raises to $4,363 (all-in), Iimitless (BU) calls $3,931.10

Total pot: $10,025 (Rake: $2)

Showdown:
OtB_RedBaron (BB) shows 7 9 (a flush, Ace high)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 34%, Flop: 52%, Turn: 70%, River: 0%)

Iimitless (BU) shows K T (a flush, Ace high - higher kicker)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 66%, Flop: 48%, Turn: 30%, River: 100%)

Iimitless (BU) wins $10,023





PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $25/$50 - 6 players
Replay this hand on Pokeit

mczhang (UTG): $6,330.94 (127 bb)
Mescarl (MP): $5,050.00 (101 bb)
Bit2Easy (CO): $11,882.80 (238 bb)
mamamamama70 (BU): $5,075.00 (102 bb)
mustang239 (SB): $13,561.34 (271 bb)
Danneville (BB): $5,000.00 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($75)
3 players fold, mamamamama70 (BU) raises to $112, mustang239 (SB) calls $87, Danneville (BB) calls $62

Flop: ($336) T 6 6 (3 players)
mustang239 (SB) checks, Danneville (BB) bets $175, mamamamama70 (BU) calls $175, mustang239 (SB) folds

Turn: ($686) Q (2 players)
Danneville (BB) bets $475, mamamamama70 (BU) raises to $1,258.84, Danneville (BB) calls $783.84

River: ($3,203.68) 6 (2 players)
Danneville (BB) checks, mamamamama70 (BU) bets $3,529.16 (all-in), Danneville (BB) calls $3,454.16 (all-in)

Total pot: $10,112 (Rake: $3)

Showdown:
mamamamama70 (BU) shows 6 K (four of a kind, Sixes)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 59%, Flop: 75%, Turn: 77%, River: 100%)

Danneville (BB) shows 5 Q (a full house, Sixes full of Queens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 41%, Flop: 25%, Turn: 23%, River: 0%)

mamamamama70 (BU) wins $10,109
02-09-2018 , 04:38 AM
PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $25/$50 - 4 players
Replay this hand on Pokeit

Iimitless (UTG): $17,830.73 (357 bb)
OhHeyCindy (BU): $5,000.00 (100 bb)
NLZWERVERNL (SB): $13,948.69 (279 bb)
mamamamama70 (BB): $12,471.05 (249 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($75)
Iimitless (UTG) raises to $125, OhHeyCindy (BU) 3-bets to $425, 1 fold, mamamamama70 (BB) 4-bets to $1,050, 1 fold, OhHeyCindy (BU) calls $625

Flop: ($2,250) 6 8 6 (2 players)
mamamamama70 (BB) bets $719.36, OhHeyCindy (BU) calls $719.36

Turn: ($3,688.72) J (2 players)
mamamamama70 (BB) checks, OhHeyCindy (BU) bets $3,230.64 (all-in), mamamamama70 (BB) calls $3,230.64

First River: ($10,150) 6 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Second River: ($10,150) T (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $10,150 (Rake: $2)

First Showdown: Board: 6 8 6 J 6

OhHeyCindy (BU) shows 5 5 (a full house, Sixes full of Fives)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 19%, Flop: 10%, Turn: 5%, River: 0%)

mamamamama70 (BB) shows T T (a full house, Sixes full of Tens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 81%, Flop: 90%, Turn: 95%, River: 100%)

mamamamama70 (BB) wins $5,074

Second Showdown: Board: 6 8 6 J T

OhHeyCindy (BU) shows 5 5 (two pair, Sixes and Fives)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 19%, Flop: 10%, Turn: 5%, River: 0%)

mamamamama70 (BB) shows T T (a full house, Tens full of Sixes)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 81%, Flop: 90%, Turn: 95%, River: 100%)

mamamamama70 (BB) wins $5,074





PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $25/$50 - 4 players
Replay this hand on Pokeit

Iimitless (UTG): $17,596.73 (352 bb)
OtB_RedBaron (BU): $5,106.14 (102 bb)
LLinusLLove (SB): $5,077.44 (102 bb)
mustang239 (BB): $10,738.16 (215 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($75)
Iimitless (UTG) raises to $125, 1 fold, LLinusLLove (SB) 3-bets to $550, mustang239 (BB) calls $500, 1 fold

Flop: ($1,225) 7 K T (2 players)
LLinusLLove (SB) bets $379.13, mustang239 (BB) calls $379.13

Turn: ($1,983.26) 8 (2 players)
LLinusLLove (SB) bets $1,107.63, mustang239 (BB) calls $1,107.63

River: ($4,198.52) 6 (2 players)
LLinusLLove (SB) bets $3,040.68 (all-in), mustang239 (BB) calls $3,040.68

Total pot: $10,279.88 (Rake: $2)

Showdown:
LLinusLLove (SB) shows A J (high card, Ace)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 63%, Flop: 58%, Turn: 23%, River: 0%)

mustang239 (BB) shows 9 8 (a straight, Six to Ten)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 37%, Flop: 42%, Turn: 77%, River: 100%)

mustang239 (BB) wins $10,277.88





PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $25/$50 - 5 players
Replay this hand on Pokeit

NLZWERVERNL (UTG): $10,345.58 (207 bb)
OtB_RedBaron (CO): $8,507.96 (170 bb)
ZarubaNT (BU): $5,501.42 (110 bb)
Iimitless (SB): $12,406.51 (248 bb)
Bit2Easy (BB): $7,635.64 (153 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($75)
1 fold, OtB_RedBaron (CO) raises to $110.50, ZarubaNT (BU) 3-bets to $353.22, 1 fold, Bit2Easy (BB) 4-bets to $908.90, 1 fold, ZarubaNT (BU) calls $555.68

Flop: ($1,953.30) 3 A 5 (2 players)
Bit2Easy (BB) bets $604.59, ZarubaNT (BU) calls $604.59

Turn: ($3,162.48) 7 (2 players)
Bit2Easy (BB) bets $789.87, ZarubaNT (BU) calls $789.87

River: ($4,742.22) 8 (2 players)
Bit2Easy (BB) checks, ZarubaNT (BU) bets $3,198.06 (all-in), Bit2Easy (BB) calls $3,198.06

Total pot: $11,138.34 (Rake: $3)

Showdown:
ZarubaNT (BU) shows 6 6 (a pair of Sixes)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 55%, Flop: 12%, Turn: 14%, River: 0%)

Bit2Easy (BB) shows Q A (a pair of Aces)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 45%, Flop: 88%, Turn: 86%, River: 100%)

Bit2Easy (BB) wins $11,135.34
02-09-2018 , 04:41 AM
PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $25/$50 - 4 players
Replay this hand on Pokeit

Flying Smile (UTG): $5,705.08 (114 bb)
mamamamama70 (BU): $5,025.00 (101 bb)
Bit2Easy (SB): $5,000.00 (100 bb)
LLinusLLove (BB): $14,257.59 (285 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($75)
Flying Smile (UTG) raises to $124, 2 players fold, LLinusLLove (BB) calls $74

Flop: ($273) 3 4 Q (2 players)
LLinusLLove (BB) checks, Flying Smile (UTG) bets $138.21, LLinusLLove (BB) raises to $417.39, Flying Smile (UTG) calls $279.18

Turn: ($1,107.78) T (2 players)
LLinusLLove (BB) bets $1,219.81, Flying Smile (UTG) calls $1,219.81

River: ($3,547.40) 8 (2 players)
LLinusLLove (BB) bets $12,496.39 (all-in), Flying Smile (UTG) calls $3,943.88 (all-in)

Total pot: $11,435.16 (Rake: $2)

Showdown:
LLinusLLove (BB) shows 5 A (high card, Ace)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 55%, Flop: 28%, Turn: 16%, River: 0%)

Flying Smile (UTG) shows K Q (a pair of Queens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 45%, Flop: 72%, Turn: 84%, River: 100%)

Flying Smile (UTG) wins $11,433.16





PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $25/$50 - 4 players
Replay this hand on Pokeit

mamamamama70 (UTG): $6,796.99 (136 bb)
OtB_RedBaron (BU): $7,553.99 (151 bb)
ZarubaNT (SB): $7,869.27 (157 bb)
LLinusLLove (BB): $9,736.25 (195 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($75)
mamamamama70 (UTG) raises to $112, 2 players fold, LLinusLLove (BB) 3-bets to $550, mamamamama70 (UTG) calls $438

Flop: ($1,125) T Q 5 (2 players)
LLinusLLove (BB) bets $348.13, mamamamama70 (UTG) calls $348.13

Turn: ($1,821.26) 2 (2 players)
LLinusLLove (BB) bets $1,200.71, mamamamama70 (UTG) calls $1,200.71

River: ($4,222.68) J (2 players)
LLinusLLove (BB) bets $7,637.41 (all-in), mamamamama70 (UTG) calls $4,698.15 (all-in)

Total pot: $13,618.98 (Rake: $2)

Showdown:
LLinusLLove (BB) shows A 4 (high card, Ace)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 32%, Flop: 19%, Turn: 16%, River: 0%)

mamamamama70 (UTG) shows A K (a straight, Ten to Ace)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 68%, Flop: 81%, Turn: 84%, River: 100%)

mamamamama70 (UTG) wins $13,616.98
02-09-2018 , 05:38 AM
Hello everyone. High stakes PLO on PokerStars has degenerated to a point where breaking the rules has become the norm. Most people reading this probably don't care. That is understandable. The people who do care can, if they would like, help significantly with little effort.

When people get reported a couple of times for breaching ToS, they get warned that they risk having their account suspended. When people get such warnings, they are pretty likely to stop breaking the rules. Most common issues include:

*Sitting out on a 6-max with 3 people on it, unwilling to play 3-handed. Camping high stakes tables can easily be worth $100/hr+/table for many players. This money is cheated away from the people following the rules, the ones only taking a seat when they are ready to play. Being afk is not a valid excuse since the EV is still stolen and the rules are still broken. The privilege of getting into good games comes with the responsibility of making sure you follow the ToS.

*Sitting out specifically when a recreational player busts/takes a break. This also creates lots of EV for bumhunters avoiding orbits in reg-lineups they are big losers in.

*Starting tables because a specific recreational is around, while having no intentions of playing unless the targetted player gets a seat at the table. Then leaving while underpaying blinds when the table gets filled with regulars. This is a new occurence that is kind of a twist on buttoning people which is one further common issue.

These types of cheating shouldn't be separated too far from MA'ing or colluding in terms of severity. I personally don't lose much, if any, EV from the poor behaviour of these people since they tend to make my games softer and I hold all tables anyway. But there are many ethical regs that get cheated out of at least 5 figures each year.

Just a handful of people reporting misconduct by sending screenshots with short explanations to PokerStars support is likely to have a big impact based on the data that I have. It doesn't matter if you do it for the support of poker or out of disrespect for the leeches making a living off of the game solely because they have been able to get away with breaking the rules for so long.

I ultimately decided against making a list of repeat offenders at this time. But if things don't change, I believe public outings will be in order. Just like they have been when people have colluded or MA'd in the past.

I think this was the proper place to make this post, but I am less sure whether it is appropriate or not to have discussions related to it clogging this thread. I'll leave that decision to moderators.

Lastly I wanted to make a shoutout to some of the players who, from my own personal experience, never fail to show the highest level of ethicality at the tables. Gavz101, fjutekk, Cobus83, Sauce123 and WRUUUUM, just to mention a few people off of the top of my head.

Often times, as a high stakes player, you have the choice between sacrificing a little money/EV or degenerating into narcissistically making whichever unethical choice makes you the most $$ in the moment. Far too many regulars have chosen the latter path lately. "Everyone else is doing it" is one of the worst excuses of all time.
02-09-2018 , 06:01 AM
"I personally don't lose much, if any, EV from the poor behaviour of these people since they tend to make my games softer and I hold all tables anyway."


Last edited by Loctus; 02-09-2018 at 06:02 AM. Reason: I do understand that Berris post is very serious and I wish all thegreat and honorable stars regs the best in the fight
02-09-2018 , 06:04 AM
Name names imo.
02-09-2018 , 08:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BERRI SWEET
"Everyone else is doing it" is one of the worst excuses of all time.
Not really. It's a rational excuse, especially since they're bad at poker compared to yourself and the players you've listed. Why expect them to be charitable, especially if they don't care about the long-term health of the games?

The burden is on PokerStars to disincentivize the unwanted behavior by whatever means necessary. Publicly shaming bumhunters/sociopaths into "doing the right thing" doesn't work -- these people don't care about their reputations. They'll only respond to a change in the rules or the threat of harsh punishment. If Stars doesn't do anything, nothing can be done.
02-09-2018 , 09:18 AM
its true they don't give a ****, they just say they have no ego and will do whatever they need to make more $, I don't play nosebleeds but this happens at my stakes too
02-09-2018 , 09:22 AM
PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $100/$200 - 2 players
Replay this hand on Pokeit

wilhasha (SB): $21,864.83 (109 bb)
muumipoiss (BB): $28,168.17 (141 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($300)
wilhasha (SB) raises to $460, muumipoiss (BB) 3-bets to $2,000, wilhasha (SB) calls $1,540

Flop: ($4,000) 5 4 8 (2 players)
muumipoiss (BB) bets $2,300, wilhasha (SB) calls $2,300

Turn: ($8,600) Q (2 players)
muumipoiss (BB) bets $4,600, wilhasha (SB) calls $4,600

River: ($17,800) Q (2 players)
muumipoiss (BB) bets $19,268.17 (all-in), wilhasha (SB) calls $12,964.83 (all-in)

Total pot: $43,729.66 (Rake: $3)

Showdown:
muumipoiss (BB) shows Q T (three of a kind, Queens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 50%, Flop: 28%, Turn: 86%, River: 100%)

wilhasha (SB) shows 6 6 (two pair, Queens and Sixes)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 50%, Flop: 72%, Turn: 14%, River: 0%)

muumipoiss (BB) wins $43,726.66
02-09-2018 , 09:22 AM
PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $100/$200 - 2 players
Replay this hand on Pokeit

OtB_RedBaron (SB): $24,803.92 (124 bb)
wilhasha (BB): $26,216.58 (131 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($300)
OtB_RedBaron (SB) raises to $442, wilhasha (BB) 3-bets to $1,900, OtB_RedBaron (SB) calls $1,458

Flop: ($3,800) 3 4 J (2 players)
wilhasha (BB) bets $1,900, OtB_RedBaron (SB) calls $1,900

Turn: ($7,600) 9 (2 players)
wilhasha (BB) bets $1,900, OtB_RedBaron (SB) calls $1,900

River: ($11,400) 8 (2 players)
wilhasha (BB) bets $3,900, OtB_RedBaron (SB) folds

Total pot: $11,400 (Rake: $3)
wilhasha (BB) wins $11,397





PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $100/$200 - 2 players
Replay this hand on Pokeit

wilhasha (SB): $38,084.15 (190 bb)
OtB_RedBaron (BB): $20,200.00 (101 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($300)
wilhasha (SB) raises to $500, OtB_RedBaron (BB) 3-bets to $2,061, wilhasha (SB) 4-bets to $4,900, OtB_RedBaron (BB) 5-bets to $20,200 (all-in), wilhasha (SB) calls $15,300

First Flop: ($40,400) T J 4 (2 players, 1 all-in)

First Turn: ($40,400) A (2 players, 1 all-in)

First River: ($40,400) 4 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Second Flop: ($40,400) 8 6 5 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Second Turn: ($40,400) 2 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Second River: ($40,400) T (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $40,400 (Rake: $3)

First Showdown: Board: T J 4 A 4

OtB_RedBaron (BB) shows Q Q (two pair, Queens and Fours)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 19%, Flop: 9%, Turn: 5%, River: 0%)

wilhasha (SB) shows K K (two pair, Kings and Fours)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 81%, Flop: 91%, Turn: 95%, River: 100%)

wilhasha (SB) wins $20,198.50

Second Showdown: Board: 8 6 5 2 T

OtB_RedBaron (BB) shows Q Q (a pair of Queens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 19%, Flop: 9%, Turn: 5%, River: 0%)

wilhasha (SB) shows K K (a pair of Kings)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 81%, Flop: 91%, Turn: 95%, River: 100%)

wilhasha (SB) wins $20,198.50
02-09-2018 , 09:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by clfst17
Not really. It's a rational excuse, especially since they're bad at poker compared to yourself and the players you've listed. Why expect them to be charitable, especially if they don't care about the long-term health of the games?

The burden is on PokerStars to disincentivize the unwanted behavior by whatever means necessary. Publicly shaming bumhunters/sociopaths into "doing the right thing" doesn't work -- these people don't care about their reputations. They'll only respond to a change in the rules or the threat of harsh punishment. If Stars doesn't do anything, nothing can be done.
Not neccessarily. I think in many areas and societies its up to the group to implicitly decide acceptable behaviour. If everyone had a negative reaction toward bad actors the prevalence of bad behaviour may be reduced. An example is your reply. You just say "oh well, they will do it anyway". That's a submissive response which implies that it is acceptable.

Whether or not this kind of attitude will have a noticeable effect is debatable. It still does not hurt to try.
02-09-2018 , 09:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loctus
"I personally don't lose much, if any, EV from the poor behaviour of these people since they tend to make my games softer and I hold all tables anyway."

lol A+
02-09-2018 , 10:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BERRI SWEET
Hello everyone. High stakes PLO on PokerStars has degenerated to a point where breaking the rules has become the norm. Most people reading this probably don't care. That is understandable. The people who do care can, if they would like, help significantly with little effort.

When people get reported a couple of times for breaching ToS, they get warned that they risk having their account suspended. When people get such warnings, they are pretty likely to stop breaking the rules. Most common issues include:

*Sitting out on a 6-max with 3 people on it, unwilling to play 3-handed. Camping high stakes tables can easily be worth $100/hr+/table for many players. This money is cheated away from the people following the rules, the ones only taking a seat when they are ready to play. Being afk is not a valid excuse since the EV is still stolen and the rules are still broken. The privilege of getting into good games comes with the responsibility of making sure you follow the ToS.

*Sitting out specifically when a recreational player busts/takes a break. This also creates lots of EV for bumhunters avoiding orbits in reg-lineups they are big losers in.

*Starting tables because a specific recreational is around, while having no intentions of playing unless the targetted player gets a seat at the table. Then leaving while underpaying blinds when the table gets filled with regulars. This is a new occurence that is kind of a twist on buttoning people which is one further common issue.

These types of cheating shouldn't be separated too far from MA'ing or colluding in terms of severity. I personally don't lose much, if any, EV from the poor behaviour of these people since they tend to make my games softer and I hold all tables anyway. But there are many ethical regs that get cheated out of at least 5 figures each year.

Just a handful of people reporting misconduct by sending screenshots with short explanations to PokerStars support is likely to have a big impact based on the data that I have. It doesn't matter if you do it for the support of poker or out of disrespect for the leeches making a living off of the game solely because they have been able to get away with breaking the rules for so long.

I ultimately decided against making a list of repeat offenders at this time. But if things don't change, I believe public outings will be in order. Just like they have been when people have colluded or MA'd in the past.

I think this was the proper place to make this post, but I am less sure whether it is appropriate or not to have discussions related to it clogging this thread. I'll leave that decision to moderators.

Lastly I wanted to make a shoutout to some of the players who, from my own personal experience, never fail to show the highest level of ethicality at the tables. Gavz101, fjutekk, Cobus83, Sauce123 and WRUUUUM, just to mention a few people off of the top of my head.

Often times, as a high stakes player, you have the choice between sacrificing a little money/EV or degenerating into narcissistically making whichever unethical choice makes you the most $$ in the moment. Far too many regulars have chosen the latter path lately. "Everyone else is doing it" is one of the worst excuses of all time.
Thanks for posting this Berri.

I have posted it to Daniel who yesterday said



so maybe this might be the first of 1000 he actually does something with it.

I also might have meetings in place with higher up at Pokerstars about the state of high stakes games, bots, etc.. so we might be able to make an actual impact here in improving the current ecosystem.

I think the first step is drawing awareness to these type of things.
02-09-2018 , 10:38 AM
go joey, fight em bots, we're counting on you
02-09-2018 , 11:45 AM
joey for president.
02-09-2018 , 11:48 AM
PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $100/$200 - 2 players
Replay this hand on Pokeit

muumipoiss (SB): $26,187.60 (131 bb)
wilhasha (BB): $37,255.43 (186 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($300)
muumipoiss (SB) raises to $500, wilhasha (BB) 3-bets to $2,300, muumipoiss (SB) calls $1,800

Flop: ($4,600) 4 Q Q (2 players)
wilhasha (BB) checks, muumipoiss (SB) bets $2,300, wilhasha (BB) calls $2,300

Turn: ($9,200) 3 (2 players)
wilhasha (BB) checks, muumipoiss (SB) bets $4,800, wilhasha (BB) calls $4,800

River: ($18,800) 2 (2 players)
wilhasha (BB) checks, muumipoiss (SB) bets $9,531.33, wilhasha (BB) raises to $27,855.43 (all-in), muumipoiss (SB) folds

Total pot: $37,862.66 (Rake: $3)
wilhasha (BB) wins $37,859.66





PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $100/$200 - 2 players
Replay this hand on Pokeit

muumipoiss (SB): $25,953.06 (130 bb)
wilhasha (BB): $25,166.03 (126 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($300)
muumipoiss (SB) raises to $500, wilhasha (BB) 3-bets to $2,300, muumipoiss (SB) calls $1,800

Flop: ($4,600) J 5 K (2 players)
wilhasha (BB) bets $1,300, muumipoiss (SB) calls $1,300

Turn: ($7,200) 8 (2 players)
wilhasha (BB) bets $5,900, muumipoiss (SB) calls $5,900

River: ($19,000) 6 (2 players)
wilhasha (BB) checks, muumipoiss (SB) checks

Total pot: $19,000 (Rake: $3)

Showdown:
wilhasha (BB) shows 5 K (two pair, Kings and Fives)
muumipoiss (SB) mucks
wilhasha (BB) wins $18,997





PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $100/$200 - 2 players
Replay this hand on Pokeit

muumipoiss (SB): $20,555.50 (103 bb)
wilhasha (BB): $20,800.00 (104 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($300)
muumipoiss (SB) raises to $500, wilhasha (BB) 3-bets to $1,900, muumipoiss (SB) calls $1,400

Flop: ($3,800) 3 Q 5 (2 players)
wilhasha (BB) checks, muumipoiss (SB) bets $2,100, wilhasha (BB) calls $2,100

Turn: ($8,000) 7 (2 players)
wilhasha (BB) checks, muumipoiss (SB) bets $4,500, wilhasha (BB) calls $4,500

River: ($17,000) 3 (2 players)
wilhasha (BB) checks, muumipoiss (SB) checks

Total pot: $17,000 (Rake: $3)

Showdown:
muumipoiss (SB) shows Q K (two pair, Queens and Threes)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 49%, Flop: 84%, Turn: 68%, River: 100%)

wilhasha (BB) shows 6 6 (two pair, Sixes and Threes)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 51%, Flop: 16%, Turn: 32%, River: 0%)

muumipoiss (SB) wins $16,997
02-09-2018 , 11:49 AM
PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $100/$200 - 2 players
Replay this hand on Pokeit

muumipoiss (SB): $49,060.74 (245 bb)
wilhasha (BB): $21,081.82 (105 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($300)
muumipoiss (SB) raises to $500, wilhasha (BB) 3-bets to $2,300, muumipoiss (SB) calls $1,800

Flop: ($4,600) T J Q (2 players)
wilhasha (BB) bets $1,900, muumipoiss (SB) calls $1,900

Turn: ($8,400) T (2 players)
wilhasha (BB) bets $3,900, muumipoiss (SB) calls $3,900

River: ($16,200) 5 (2 players)
wilhasha (BB) checks, muumipoiss (SB) checks

Total pot: $16,200 (Rake: $3)

Showdown:
wilhasha (BB) shows 7 9 (a pair of Tens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 45%, Flop: 55%, Turn: 34%, River: 0%)

muumipoiss (SB) shows Q 4 (two pair, Queens and Tens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 55%, Flop: 45%, Turn: 66%, River: 100%)

muumipoiss (SB) wins $16,197





PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $100/$200 - 2 players
Replay this hand on Pokeit

wilhasha (SB): $31,702.00 (159 bb)
muumipoiss (BB): $63,692.31 (318 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($300)
wilhasha (SB) raises to $500, muumipoiss (BB) 3-bets to $2,200, wilhasha (SB) calls $1,700

Flop: ($4,400) K 2 3 (2 players)
muumipoiss (BB) checks, wilhasha (SB) bets $1,900, muumipoiss (BB) calls $1,900

Turn: ($8,200) T (2 players)
muumipoiss (BB) checks, wilhasha (SB) bets $8,900, muumipoiss (BB) calls $8,900

River: ($26,000) 9 (2 players)
muumipoiss (BB) checks, wilhasha (SB) bets $9,900, muumipoiss (BB) calls $9,900

Total pot: $45,800 (Rake: $3)

Showdown:
wilhasha (SB) shows Q K (a pair of Kings)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 16%, Flop: 22%, Turn: 11%, River: 0%)

muumipoiss (BB) shows A A (a pair of Aces)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 84%, Flop: 78%, Turn: 89%, River: 100%)

muumipoiss (BB) wins $45,797

      
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