Thanks, I quit poker about a year ago (pre-zoom switch, that format wouldn't hurt me so much).

Kaby,

What are you doing now that you've quit poker?

lol...

a) fili/other ppl actually in the game are obviously in a better position than you to evaluate the play of both of these players, so voicing their concerns/suspicions is far more reasonable than your denouncing of them.

b) perhaps posting deeper reasoning on nvg could be a -ev move?

c) creates a really terrible atmosphere for the current state of poker if suspicious play/activity/whatever cant be voiced on an open forum without people coming out with the ol "lol hes just better than u". I'm sure those things have been said about super users for ex.

zoom pools look a bit lively today? ~10 players in 25/50 NL and PLO , 10/20 NL going too instead of 0 in each

I don't know about that tbh, I would say I'm a better judge than fili of what humans that study with the right tools can accomplish.

Chilled for a couple of months, now figuring out in what way I want to become a journalist/essayist/writer. I have a blog in Dutch, I guess I can't link it here but anyone interested can PM :-)

what would lead you to believe that? When was the last time you even played in these games?

how much have you played w/ OBORRA/40and7?

Seems asinine to say you are a better judge of whether or not these two (may) be bots than people actually playing them/studying them etc.

Angeles, you should shut up and listen when a guy like Kaby who's actually accomplished something in poker (unlike yourself) comes into this thread and weighs in on a topic like this. Even having retired from poker he still has a much clearer vision of the heads up nl environment than you, me or 99% of others posting in this thread.

Angeles has a point, it is very very difficult for an opinion to hold weight if you are not actively engaged in said activity. That's not to dismiss Kaby at all, He was obviously one of the top hu guys until recently but how can he have an informed opinion on X players without playing them under current conditions? At the same time Kaby's suggestion that these players have just "improved" is also reasonable but Fili, Evil empire etc have the experience of currently playing 40and7 to back up their opinions (and opinions are all this is).

Isn't 40and7 is the guy who battled (if you can call it that) bilzerian on ACR under the sn SexandWhiskey? Also playing one table does not make you a bot just look at busquet or colman iirc those guys play one at a time for the most part.

I mean I play hsnl online, it's not like I have "accomplished nothing" lol. Also not sure what relevance it has to this discussion at all...

Yeah they're allegedly the same person. Not sure where anyone said 1 tabling meant they were a bot?

the bad thing about speculating someone is a bot (without giving actual evidence), is clearly that you could do it with just the intention to hurt someones action.

im not saying at all i think hes not a bot, but from what i read here so far, its not enough to convince me. the best reasoning i read was him being bad at exploiting....that info seems to be derivated from one single session and i also think that if someone hardcore studies a solution without putting too much thought behind it, they might end up there as well

Game is formed around mustang239. At some point todays he just started to openjam any2 on his 3 regular tables.

PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $5/$10 ($200 Cap) - 9 players
Rail Hand History Converter

mustang239 (UTG): $268.39 (27 bb)
Optimuus12 (UTG+1): $200 (20 bb)
Cassimmaster (MP1): $482.83 (48 bb)
jspreh (MP2): $200 (20 bb)
Belqi (MP3): $201 (20 bb)
VACBlack (CO): $915.71 (92 bb)
Ilyinskiy R. (BU): $207 (21 bb)
yakuts (SB): $594.43 (59 bb)
b_____a__242 (BB): $1208.27 (121 bb)

Pre Flop: ($15)
mustang239 (UTG) raises to $200, Optimuus12 (UTG+1) calls $200 (all-in), 2 folds, Belqi (MP3) calls $200, 4 folds

Flop: ($615) T 3 8 (3 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($615) 5 (3 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($615) J (3 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $615 (Rake: $3)

Showdown:
mustang239 (UTG) shows 3 7 (a pair of Threes)
(Equity - pre: 13%, flop: 14%, turn: 10%, river: 0%)

Optimuus12 (UTG+1) shows Q Q (a pair of Queens)
(Equity - pre: 48%, flop: 35%, turn: 57%, river: 0%)

Belqi (MP3) shows K A (a flush, King high)
(Equity - pre: 39%, flop: 51%, turn: 33%, river: 100%)

Belqi (MP3) wins $612

Agree with this, although 40and7's improvement was allegedly overnight.

fwiw I played 1k hands with 40and7 in December/early Jan & on 06/01 he became the only player I've ever reported to stars. I haven't even really suspected anyone else.

Also to posts saying there isn't enough evidence, sure people haven't talked so much about why they think so, but if you've been watching the stars lobby then you'll notice almost every one of the players who've been regularly battling him have accused him of atleast using some form of software assistance. bajskorven87 & secret_m0d3 did so only casually in stars chat but have been two of the most frequent this year. Even if I'd never played him, i'd be extremely surprised if all these respectable players came to the same conclusion and were just wrong.

you are very wrong about this. especially because pio results can be compiled into software more suitable for in game play. all of you who doubt AI ending this and all games played for $ over the internet are in for a hell of a surprise

im sure you (and most others) want the difference to be "huge" but it is unfortunately not. the game has already transitioned from primarily computer aided human play to now primarily human aided computer play and that trend will only continue for the short time this and all games played for $ over the internet have left, like/accept it or not

Not sure about "compiling the results to software more suitable for in game", but as far as the root program itself (pio), I have alot of exp with it and that's why I said pio in game would result in you timing out every hand.

Don't know where you drew the conclusion anyone was doubting whether AI will have a negative impact on the games or not, but it's a pretty common belief among poker players. Only debate is the timeline.

well now you are. and i promise you cant even imagine how much worse it is than you currently think

as for timeline, no one ever overestimates the exponential pace of progress of information technology

well, you got that right

I sort of agree but the thing that hurts someones action at hu is less whether they are a bot or not and more whether they are exceptionally good or not. If regs thought 40and7 was a bot and exploitable, those same people would not avoid playing him. Whether it is fair is another argument entirely, however pokersites have been awful at policing their own games, I think it is only fair that players have a platform to voice their concerns.


Think of the Skier5 controversy with his software that was used for hypers. Although having a similar action based software from thousands of hours of pio work likely be more difficult, it certainly isn't impossible. It certainly would be profitable.

couldn't agree more.

PokerStars, Omaha Pot Limit - $25/$50 - 2 players
Rail Hand History Converter

R4lti (BU): $6930.26 (139 bb)
bajskorven87 (BB): $6991.12 (140 bb)

Pre Flop: ($75)
R4lti (BU) calls $25, bajskorven87 (BB) checks

Flop: ($100) 5 A 7 (2 players)
bajskorven87 (BB) checks, R4lti (BU) bets $97.75, bajskorven87 (BB) raises to $300, R4lti (BU) calls $202.25

Turn: ($700) 3 (2 players)
bajskorven87 (BB) bets $697.75, R4lti (BU) raises to $2791, bajskorven87 (BB) 3-bets to $6641.12 (all-in), R4lti (BU) calls $3789.26 (all-in)

First River: ($13860.52) 5 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Second River: ($13860.52) 2 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $13860.52 (Rake: $2.25)

First Showdown: Board: 5 A 7 3 5

bajskorven87 (BB) shows 4 6 T Q (a straight, Three to Seven)
(Equity - pre: 63%, flop: 72%, turn: 48%, river: 50%)

R4lti (BU) shows 2 4 6 J (a straight, Three to Seven)
(Equity - pre: 37%, flop: 28%, turn: 53%, river: 50%)

bajskorven87 (BB) wins $3464.57
R4lti (BU) wins $3464.57

Second Showdown: Board: 5 A 7 3 2

bajskorven87 (BB) shows 4 6 T Q (a straight, Three to Seven)
(Equity - pre: 63%, flop: 72%, turn: 48%, river: 50%)

R4lti (BU) shows 2 4 6 J (a straight, Three to Seven)
(Equity - pre: 37%, flop: 28%, turn: 53%, river: 50%)

bajskorven87 (BB) wins $3464.57
R4lti (BU) wins $3464.56

PokerStars, Omaha Pot Limit - $25/$50 - 2 players
Rail Hand History Converter

R4lti (BU): $6274.62 (125 bb)
bajskorven87 (BB): $5652.51 (113 bb)

Pre Flop: ($75)
R4lti (BU) raises to $150, bajskorven87 (BB) calls $100

Flop: ($300) A 4 3 (2 players)
bajskorven87 (BB) checks, R4lti (BU) bets $232.25, bajskorven87 (BB) raises to $750, R4lti (BU) calls $517.75

Turn: ($1800) 9 (2 players)
bajskorven87 (BB) bets $1450, R4lti (BU) raises to $5374.62 (all-in), bajskorven87 (BB) calls $3302.51 (all-in)

First River: ($11305.02) 6 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Second River: ($11305.02) Q (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $11305.02 (Rake: $2.25)

First Showdown: Board: A 4 3 9 6

bajskorven87 (BB) shows 2 5 5 7 (a straight, Three to Seven)
(Equity - pre: 61%, flop: 60%, turn: 55%, river: 100%)

R4lti (BU) shows 2 4 5 8 (a straight, Deuce to Six)
(Equity - pre: 39%, flop: 40%, turn: 45%, river: 0%)

bajskorven87 (BB) wins $5651.39

Second Showdown: Board: A 4 3 9 Q

bajskorven87 (BB) shows 2 5 5 7 (a straight, Ace to Five)
(Equity - pre: 61%, flop: 60%, turn: 55%, river: 50%)

R4lti (BU) shows 2 4 5 8 (a straight, Ace to Five)
(Equity - pre: 39%, flop: 40%, turn: 45%, river: 50%)

bajskorven87 (BB) wins $2825.69
R4lti (BU) wins $2825.69

PokerStars, Omaha Pot Limit - $25/$50 - 2 players
Rail Hand History Converter

bajskorven87 (BU): $5641 (113 bb)
R4lti (BB): $9494.01 (190 bb)

Pre Flop: ($75)
bajskorven87 (BU) raises to $150, R4lti (BB) calls $100

Flop: ($300) 3 9 6 (2 players)
R4lti (BB) checks, bajskorven87 (BU) checks

Turn: ($300) J (2 players)
R4lti (BB) checks, bajskorven87 (BU) bets $225, R4lti (BB) raises to $972.75, bajskorven87 (BU) 3-bets to $3216, R4lti (BB) calls $2243.25

River: ($6732) J (2 players)
R4lti (BB) checks, bajskorven87 (BU) checks

Total pot: $6732 (Rake: $2.25)

Showdown:
R4lti (BB) shows 2 T Q A (a pair of Jacks)
(Equity - pre: 44%, flop: 55%, turn: 40%, river: 0%)

bajskorven87 (BU) shows 8 8 T J (three of a kind, Jacks)
(Equity - pre: 56%, flop: 45%, turn: 60%, river: 100%)

bajskorven87 (BU) wins $6729.75

PokerStars, Omaha Pot Limit - $25/$50 - 2 players
Rail Hand History Converter

R4lti (BU): $5000 (100 bb)
bajskorven87 (BB): $5951.38 (119 bb)

Pre Flop: ($75)
R4lti (BU) calls $25, bajskorven87 (BB) checks

Flop: ($100) 8 6 T (2 players)
bajskorven87 (BB) checks, R4lti (BU) bets $97.75, bajskorven87 (BB) calls $97.75

Turn: ($295.50) 5 (2 players)
bajskorven87 (BB) checks, R4lti (BU) bets $243.40, bajskorven87 (BB) raises to $1023.45, R4lti (BU) 3-bets to $3363.60, bajskorven87 (BB) 4-bets to $5803.63 (all-in), R4lti (BU) calls $1488.65 (all-in)

First River: ($10000) Q (2 players, 2 all-in)

Second River: ($10000) A (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $10000 (Rake: $2.25)

First Showdown: Board: 8 6 T 5 Q

bajskorven87 (BB) shows 8 8 J Q (three of a kind, Eights)
(Equity - pre: 67%, flop: 49%, turn: 48%, river: 0%)

R4lti (BU) shows 2 7 9 J (a straight, Eight to Queen)
(Equity - pre: 33%, flop: 51%, turn: 53%, river: 100%)

R4lti (BU) wins $4998.88

Second Showdown: Board: 8 6 T 5 A

bajskorven87 (BB) shows 8 8 J Q (three of a kind, Eights)
(Equity - pre: 67%, flop: 49%, turn: 48%, river: 0%)

R4lti (BU) shows 2 7 9 J (a straight, Six to Ten)
(Equity - pre: 33%, flop: 51%, turn: 53%, river: 100%)

R4lti (BU) wins $4998.87

PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $25/$50 - 2 players
Rail Hand History Converter

40and7 (BU): $5147.75 (103 bb)
Tim0thee (BB): $5773.89 (115 bb)

Pre Flop: ($75)
40and7 (BU) raises to $125, Tim0thee (BB) 3-bets to $524.34, 40and7 (BU) calls $399.34

Flop: ($1048.68) A T 4 (2 players)
Tim0thee (BB) bets $319.39, 40and7 (BU) calls $319.39

Turn: ($1687.46) 7 (2 players)
Tim0thee (BB) bets $1218.62, 40and7 (BU) calls $1218.62

River: ($4124.70) K (2 players)
Tim0thee (BB) bets $3711.54 (all-in), 40and7 (BU) calls $3085.40 (all-in)

Total pot: $10295.50 (Rake: $2.25)

Showdown:
Tim0thee (BB) shows 5 9 (high card Ace)
(Equity - pre: 36%, flop: 8%, turn: 20%, river: 0%)

40and7 (BU) shows T J (a pair of Tens)
(Equity - pre: 64%, flop: 92%, turn: 80%, river: 100%)

40and7 (BU) wins $10293.25

PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $25/$50 - 2 players
Rail Hand History Converter

40and7 (BU): $5047.75 (101 bb)
bashoura (BB): $3746.26 (75 bb)

Pre Flop: ($75)
40and7 (BU) raises to $125, bashoura (BB) 3-bets to $200, 40and7 (BU) calls $75

Flop: ($400) T 9 7 (2 players)
bashoura (BB) checks, 40and7 (BU) bets $131.26, bashoura (BB) calls $131.26

Turn: ($662.52) K (2 players)
bashoura (BB) checks, 40and7 (BU) bets $495.20, bashoura (BB) raises to $2145.87, 40and7 (BU) calls $1650.67

River: ($4954.26) 6 (2 players)
bashoura (BB) bets $1269.13 (all-in), 40and7 (BU) calls $1269.13

Total pot: $7492.52 (Rake: $2.25)

Showdown:
bashoura (BB) shows J Q (a straight, Nine to King)
(Equity - pre: 29%, flop: 26%, turn: 97%, river: 100%)

40and7 (BU) shows J K (a pair of Kings)
(Equity - pre: 71%, flop: 74%, turn: 3%, river: 0%)

bashoura (BB) wins $7490.27