Because even the attempt is punishable?

Nobody likes to be robbed and if you get caught trying, it can end badly.

That's fine, let's move on.

I think it's that people don't see a way this can easily be stopped. At high stakes maybe they film the play live, but others have said it doesn't stop an earpiece being used. And Pokerstars won't have resources to check all the low stakes and midstakes players that could be doing this sort of thing.

How is it fraud by any legal definition as their are zero laws against using an RTA. The rules of poker site X do not equal the actual law.

I think the site was also paying him $35 an hour to play.
It's small money, and I think he had plenty of money already, so I guess it must just be in his personality type to cheat.

small money ? $35 an hour to play + 100% rb + your winrate. I don't know what stakes he played, but he had like $220K confiscated i guess. Don't think its small money.

I meant it was small money ($35 and hour + rake) to throw away your integrity for, when you are worth many hundreds of thousands of dollars.
I didn't know he had that money confiscated. I agree that's not small money.

I only read about it on here, and googled it, as I've been subbed to his training site. Was disappointed to read it.

Even if paisting was using RTA, he’d tell you that the software was wrong and wouldn’t follow the suggestions.

and a poker hand is well played when won. Don't be result oriented.

Not gonna lie, I got a kick out of the RTA vs. HUD vs. solver semantic squabbling in here. Another exercise in denotation vs. connotation in language.

Reminds me of the term "performance-enhancing drugs," as used in the world of sports. Sure, if you broke down the phrase, it should include everything from Mibolerone to Motrin. If you say "PED" in a sports context, most people's heads go to the banned end of the spectrum. (e.g. I'm headed to a department meeting in a half-hour: if I was to offer our coaches a "huge discount on PEDs," I'll get chased out of the room. It wouldn't matter that I simply meant a very decent bulk rate on Advil.)

Similarly, if you examined the actual words "real-time assistance" in your English class, yes, it should be a wide category that includes everything from HUDS through TimeMojo through solvers to an outright bot. But that's not how the poker community has settled on the term RTA. Personally, I'd go with what PokerStars puts on its rundown of permitted and prohibited tools (emphasis added): "a tool that informs [players] exactly what action to take in real-time."

I wonder if the people who are digging in on classifying HUDs as RTA are the same people who, when the Subway sandwich maker asks what "veggies" they want, will point out that tomatoes, peppers, avocados, cucumbers, olives and pickles are all fruits, not vegetables.

lol holy **** I was only aware of avocados being a fruit.

https://www.businessinsider.com/frui...ference-2018-6
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To follow up on this post from Page 2... policy discussion ITT seems to indicate that pro/net-withdrawing players are willing to accept additional scrutiny to combat this issue? As a goodwill gesture to allow sites as much reign as possible to detect/thwart/remove RTA and reimburse affected players who are not abiding by published Terms of Service?

It's already a bit rough data privacy-wise (imo) because sites have collected a bunch of real-time data on players for years, conducted source of wealth checks (at times awarding $100 for this info?), KYC/AML, etc?

As far as what really happened in this specific case, I sympathize with the lack of information from direct parties in the thread since the original post was created. I'm waiting to hear what Kruse and Henri have to say (if anything), along with what the corresponding poker sites eventually conclude (if anything) -- to gain a more complete understanding of what really happened and hopefully grasp/gain perspective on potential remedies going forward.

-David
_____

Jesus christ, imagine if he hadn't been

as of now, we didnt have a response from Fedor or Buehlero yet. NLG and Natural 8 are doing nothing to distance themselves from the Fedor & Buehlero . This is very sad and concerning if you ask me

looks like they are sitting it out till its all over. I hope Leon sees it differently tho

I drink coffee every day and consider it drug use.

For six-max cash, he would need to store a minimum of 25,000 solutions, maybe more, to cover all of the spots. Additionally, in order to do this, he would have to use some level of abstraction to simplify the game tree to only a subset of strategically different flops (if he solved for all ~20k flops he would need over 315,000 solutions).

Now, this is where it gets kind of interesting. Let's assume for a moment that he performed the abstraction to simplify the game, and only has 25,000 solutions. This would require over 30TB of disk space on his "computer". It seems unlikely to me that he has a game tree of this size sitting on a laptop that's on the desk behind him, which he manually looks at in between hands whilst multi-tabling, where he also has to decode the abstraction that he has used to simplify the tree in real time / in his head.

So, let's say he doesn't need to do the decoding of the suit-level abstraction, because he solved the entire tree. Well now he has 10x the amount of data storage requirements and needs over 300TB of storage for all of the solutions. How many computers are you aware of that store this much data? As an aside, it would cost $7000 a month to store 300TB of data on Amazon Web Services, so if he did do it, maybe that's why he needed to play as high as NL40K

Was he entering the board hands or just his head or hole cards. Was the a screen scraper hook up from Monitors

What u Re saying is only partly true. Obv didn't have solutions for all 21k flops. The 1755 flops list is enough. In one of the claims they even wrote that they think he mkssplayed one hand caus the suits weren't in that 1755 list...

And solutions files are smaller then what ure saying. Egb if I take gto+ solution files, he can easily have 30000 solutions files on his pc.

Did Kruse only play vs Leon the one time bencb and pads friends had a piece ? IIRC they bought pieces because he had direct position on Leon. He lost that session and they didn't buy pieces from him again. That doesn't mean he didnt play vs Leon in other games though

Scamlero was last live 22 days ago

I somehow get the feeling that more people were involved, at least the staking part. On the no limit gaming / poker code utube, people are asking for a response, caus Buehler is also a part of the no limit gaming team, or at least he is in some of their videos.

All u get there is silence or ridiculous answers from whoever manages the poker code account.

It feels extremely weird that there is no comment or distancing or anything from no limit/poker code. They are all German, they all live in Vienna. Then pads and bencb both said friends of them also invested in kruse.

The friends of bencb I guess are people who live in Vienna, play poker. So obv the poker code/no limit gaming crew of Fedor Holz would be the most logical one.

Really sure they didn't know about the cheating but it feels like they deliberately not talking about this stuff, caus they were investors.

And they clear tactic here is to wait and sit it out till Bo one ever talks about it.

Is that the best you can come up with regards to the possibilities? You didn't get the job I'm afraid..

amazing how GG just gets to walk away from this, im willing to say it is beyond my opinion and that it is fact that kruse was using rta, there's enough evidence that i think entertaining any other idea is actually stupid.

yet him + henri who knew he was investing in a cheater, and it's not circumstantial evidence, i mean there are very blatant messages between the two and they just....continue to be N8 ambassadors, the accounts remain open for play?

I mean just the messages alone + the picture of him with two mice + a solver open on a 2nd monitor i mean what the actual ****. At first I thought they were just taking a week or so to figure out how to spin for the best PR, but everyone involved is actually just going to be able to sit quietly for awhile and this is will all blow over. Super frustrating

Imagine what GG is willing to hide from people when they dont even deal with something that's being waved around in peoples faces

The law doesn't have to define any possible fraud in any possible scenario. It is enough to define fraud in general.

100% agree. Kruse should be sued. Proofs are given. Better proofs could be obtained with the cooperation of the pokersite. But as I said before, pokersites do not have any incentive to ban bots&cheaters, they just have an incentive to not let winning bots and cheaters cash out. I would be very surprised if pokersites start to cooperate with law enforcement in cheater/bot cases.
You should still have your lawyer force them to cooperation.

Don't forget to sue Buehler as well, since he enabled the fraud by providing funds.

Have fun storming the castle!
Do you think it will work?
It will take a miracle.

Of course, you would mainly focus on solving the most common spots. So BTN vs BB first, then BTN vs CO and then the 3 bet spots.

But that's assuming he really did it all the manual way. And that's absurd.