But he makes a valid point. He said it was wrong but this is how the real world is. People are going to cheat because they want money and they can cheat without much repercussion. You can take the moral high ground, but is he wrong?

An interesting Blog post about 888Poker. Posting in this thread because I found this part really interesting. So if you can prove the person was cheating in court they can do jail time for online fraud?

https://beastsofpoker.com/jussi-nevanlinna-888poker/

^ I remember the detective work that went into confirming that guy was guilty, it was incredible from certain 2p2ers. The guy in question was making huge posts from diff 2p2 accounts in the same thread and they pinned him by the way he misspelled a certain word or something. Was epic.

Patrick Leonard just messaged me he will finally release the inside information he has about Fedor Kruse.

Oh ****, I didn't open his text message before, he apparently sent me this message in the middle of september.

But... We are december now ?

Yeah that's right. Patrick Leonard is keeping inside information since then.

Don't be like pads.

COME OUT OFF YOUR BASEMENT AND BRING THOSE CLOWNS TO JUSTICE

Scaaaaammmmlleeeroooo

Fedor is back in the mix!

No, it isn't. Buying action was a mistake but not an uncommon reaction that most of us would be easily capable of doing without really thinking too hard ... this was their friend and roommate not some stranger they met on the street.

So what's the update on this. Kruse back to normal poker life or what.

Is there any way for the security team behind these clients to apply Benfords law to weed out the cheats? Or even personally thru/ db analysis?

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk

Any Bulhero or Kruse sightings?

What is the community consensus about using preflop charts while you are playing? My understanding is that charts are fine and have been for a few years, Polk even tried to include them in his match against Dnegs which Dnegs balked at.

If using pre-flop charts are considered ok, particularly charts created by a solver, then why is referring to a database of solved flops seen as some great taboo and clear cut cheating?

Those two things dont seem very different to me. Preflop database v Postflop database, yes the postflop database will be more complex and ultimately provides more information but its still the same idea.

Its sad to see but this may just be the future of online poker. It will be about creating the best solver database.

Maybe stud and especially draw games are too hard to database like this and become the popular online games.

My understanding is only simple static PF charts are allowed on the major sites(like open raise ranges). Charts that cover every PF situation derived from a solver or creating a program that spits out an input versus different sizes from villian is not permitted.

Postflop database is worst than PF, it's more complicated. Being able to use a database in-game is simply cheating cuz it's unfair, imo it's the equivalent to bringing a gun to a sword fight. I think it's up to the community to determine where that greyline is, what's considered RTA and what isn't.

If it were up to me, nothing that would help you make a better decision that was prepared off the table would be allowed in-game including PF charts or personal notes written prior to your session, but these things are extremely difficult to police.

Thats kind of my point. Whats stopping you from having a set of charts for different preflop raise sizes. Same thing with postflop, what is stopping you from having "charts" for all of the different flops? In reality the answer is space and paper/toner supply, but thats where databasing comes in.

And you're right, there is no way to enforce it. Just like there is no way to enforce someone having a solver database on a 2nd PC, unless they are dumb enough to do it on stream or something like this thread seems to be about.

I agree with charts being RTA as well but it kind of just seems like the future of online NLHE and PLO. Computers aren't fast enough to solve in real time, but you can create a solver database, and in the future (or probably present tbh) a program that pulls information from the poker table (flops, stack sizes, etc) and then quickly finds the correct solution out of a database of millions.

Because good players will be able to execute a mostly strong preflop strategy without needing to use 3rd party references, postflop is much more complex and where the majority of edge is derived in poker - if you can just copy paste what the computer does it is very much cheating and gaining an unfair edge

But thats a difference in degree not a difference in kind when it comes to solver databases. Just because a postflop database is harder to compile and more useful than a preflop database doesn't make them dissimilar.

The results of a postflop database are more striking so people have a gut reaction against them, but once you have accepted preflop charts/databases as ok I dont see how you can logically be against postflop databases too.

A HUD vs a solver is a difference in kind, though I would even argue they arent much different in how they supplement the limitations of the human brain. The HUD/database system picks up information and organizes it in a way that is basically impossible for the human brain to do alone. A solver does a similar thing, just with more complex calculations.

It all has to go away if online poker is going to thrive in the future. HUDS, charts, solvers, all of it. (At least 3rd party HUDs/databases, if sites want to include a simple HUD as part of the UI then fine)

It won't, there's literally zero things about online poker to be hopeful about. Fewer recs, overall liquidity getting lower, rake getting higher, more bots, more RTA. There isn't one glimmer of hope I can think of.

The same can be said about future in general. Climate change, pollution, holocene extinction, AI, singularity, mass unemployment, weapons more powerful than nuclear bombs, artificial viruses, weaponized nanobots.... and the list just goes on. Worrying about poker should be the least of our concern.

Mixed Games!!! Ill be in the Drawmaha lab for the next 10 years and when my time comes I will be ready to crush.

Its not going to happen though , its about preventing future negative changes such as postflop 'charts' and live solvers from becoming easily usable without punishment. I believe in sites like stars to keep the games safe. Other sites such as GG/ACR, not so much faith.

With preflop charts being used by 'everyone' over the years, as some podcasts mention even recs use preflop charts cause it makes them comfortable - poker is still very beatable and players using charts still make big mistakes not adjusting to circumstances in game.

Same can be said about people who do cheat using postflop solvers, they still wont be playing perfectly because they aren't adapting live to situations but its just way too much available information that it would kind of force them to play at least decent copy pasting solver strategy presumably.


I personally think preflop charts are w.e , I don't use them personally but I don't mind knowing most of my opponents are using them.
I think anyone using any postflop assistance is cheating and stealing money and deserves to be banned + funds taken from them/refunded to the people they cheated.

Sorry to hijack this thread with my waxing philosophically. I had never seen this thread before and then someone randomly bumped it and I found it interesting why some RTA is considered ok and then other kinds are clearly not. But this whole issue could potentially be its own thread.

If preflop charts are ok, then what about ICmizer, or a set of shove/fold charts created by ICMizer for different positions and stack sizes?

Is an interactive Excel chart that much different than a chart printed out on paper.

Just seems incredibly arbitrary to say "simple preflop charts are ok, but anything beyond that is clear and blatant cheating".

HUDs only show information about hands that already happened while solvers are on the input side. On HUDs you only see frequencies and not exact ranges, making it useless against someone haven't played a lot of hands (recs). It's a world of difference.

Gotta imagine this scumbag is just playing online under new SNs as well