Yes for instance in this case:

https://www.gamblingnews.com/news/gg...d-a-poker-pro/

?

The article says the opposite, more than once.

Actually the article rather clearly states they did take his initial deposit until he talked to them which is a polite way of saying threatened to sue them for their fraud. If it had been a smaller amount they would have laughed in his face as they know what the legal cost to get your initial investment back is but in this case they realized the amount was big enough and he apparently had the assets to be able to afford the attorney to get his stolen money returned.

OK. But whether your assessment is correct or not, it has nothing to do with this:

The article says nothing about the site keeping the money for themselves. In fact, it states multiple times that GG claims to have sent the confiscated money to the player's opponents. Now, I don't know if that's what actually happened, but the article certainly doesn't make any claim to the contrary.

The key word is "claimed", because as far as I know, nobody outside the company has access to this kind of information. Also why does that make it any better? The german pro still had money stolen, which he had won at the tables from other players without engaging in any kind of cheating. Apparently the story is, they originally banned him for "bum hunting", which is against the TOS of GG Poker, but its certainly not against the rules of poker, and its kind of ridiculous to think, cash games can exist without "bum hunting".

Even in live games people choose, who they want to play against, and most of the high stakes action today takes place in private games or games, you need to be invited to. And when it comes to high stakes online games, they only run, when a "VIP" is playing, and this is certainly not any different on GG Poker. So if they really meant this, they should ban all their site sponsored pros, who play cash games.

Its also part of the story, that the german pro lost on the second account, he had at the GG poker network, and GG Poker did not refund him these losses. So as he say in the article, they freerolled him. As long as he was losing, they had no problem with him playing there, but when he suddenly started winning, they found a lame excuse to steal his money "suddenly" discovering, that oh by the way, we banned this guy several years ago

None of that stuff matters, it doesn't matter what the rules of the game are either. They are a private business and can run it any way they like. They are doing what is best for the business and its shareholders. The player's needs, especially that of Pros are not mentioned in their business plan. Poker players think they are part of the business and should be listened to. But poker players have been historically very poor at business and ethics. If you don't like a particular sites rules, the best way to make them aware is to simply not play there.

But only within the limits of the law, just like any other private business. If I remember it correctly, the episode with the german player happened, while GG Poker was still unregulated in Germany. Now they are regulated in Germany, and hopefully the german authorities do not allow them to randomly steal money from their players, like they did from this guy.

Completely agree with this. And I guess, thats also the point of this thread? Why play on a site, where only the owners and sponsored pros / shills are allowed to win?

Describing this as theft and random is quite the exaggeration

I dont think so at all. Its pure theft, and there is absolutely no moral justification for it.

So, is it the mere presence of a contract term between poker sites and players which gives them the right to confiscate funds in the event they are, say, cheating, and you think instead it should be fine for players to do this with no downside and freeroll both the site and legit players? Or do you think that such a term is fine, and it's just that they shouldn't have enforced it once they recognised a previously banned bumhunter was playing on their site?

Right, which is why I included that word. But you suggested that GG is keeping the funds, and replied with this when you were asked for evidence that was happening:

Which wasn't evidence they were keeping the money, and as I've pointed out, the only part of the article that addresses the money suggests the exact opposite. Yes, that's only GG's unverified claim, but the point is that there certainly isn't evidence provided in the article that disputes their claim. So providing the article as evidence that GG is keeping the money makes no sense.

No one's talking about anything being better - a specific claim of yours was being discussed. That's it.

Sure, there are lots of issues to discuss here. But I think it's best to stick to the facts, and if there's going to be speculation, we make it clear that's what we're doing. Stating that you have evidence that GG Poker is keeping the funds for themselves, when you don't, doesn't seem all that productive.

Ok I should not have used the term "keep for themselfes", since its possibly incorrect and also not the main point. If I take 130.000$ from your safe and give them to people on the street, that is still theft, and this is also the case with, what GG Poker did.

Bumhunting is not cheating, and its a completely subjective term. Therefore a contract such as the one of GG Poker is unfair to players, and regulators should not allow a site to have such terms. This is no different from the fact, there are tons of other regulations for, what businesses can and cannot do in different countries. Its called consumer protection. Also while it is the right of any business to choose, who they want to have as customers, a customer is not permitting any crime by purchasing a service in a place, where he is unwanted.

Lets say this happened in a psysical casino. A regular player has been winning a lot, and he is not very good at engaging socially with other players, so whenever he show up, the games tend to break down. Having noticed this management tell him, he is not welcome any more. 4 years pass, and now the casino has a new owner. He show up, either because he had forgotten, what happened, or he think, maybe its different now, because there is a new owner.

He presents himself under his real name, and they let him in. He play and win some money, but after the session the new management finds out, that oh by the way, thats the guy we banned 4 years ago. What should then happen is of course, that they should cash in his chips and tell him to not come back again. And thats it. He did not do anything criminal, nor did he do anything, which harm the casino or other players. He just showed up and played on equal terms with everyone else, and if management did not want that, they should not have let him in.

If players are found cheating, thats a different story. In that case the poker site should hand over the evidence to the police, and then the rest should be up to the legal system. Like when the danish pro Peter Jepsen had several millions confiscated and was send 3 years to jail, because he planted spy software on the computers of several opponents. While the case in going on, the account of the subspected player should be put on hold, so that he can neither play or withdraw the funds. And then when there is a final ruling, the poker site should pay out the funds to either the player or the authorities in the country, where he reside.

And sure this might not be very practical, if the player suspected of cheating only has like 500$ in their account. But then the poker site can just pay out the funds, if the account is verified, and then close it and move on. The important for other players is not, that those 500$ are confiscated. The important is, that the account is closed, so the cheating cannot continue. And if we are talking about things like a botting ring, then often the accounts will be in fake names and unverified, in which case its obviously not possible to pay out the funds. So in that case its fine, that the site just keep it or distribute it to affected players.

As a final comment about this whole "bum hunting" thing on GG Poker, then its completely legit, that sites want to limit table selection in cash games. All sites have basically done that now in one way or another. But it should be done though technical solutions and not via TOS, that allow the site to steal people money in the case of percieved "bum hunting" or for that matter other "unethical pracitices". Examples of technical solutions used by other sites are:

* Limit to number of tables played (basically all sites now as far as I know)
* Seating people at a random table (888 Poker, PokerStars before for special time limited games)
* Not allowing people to see, who is at a table, before they have been dealt in (ACR)
* Anonymous tables (Ignition and others)
* Seating at a random vacant seat as condition for joining a waiting list (PokerStars)

All this is completely legit, and GG Poker can just do some of this instead of their current totally ridiculous and unfair TOS.

He was banned and told to not return. He ignored the specific warning that violating the ban would result in a confiscation. He violated and they confiscated. The confiscation was NOT due to a arbitrary bum hunting definition. The confiscation was due to violating the ban. He was specifically warned

He chose to int3ntionally violate the ban knowing if caught they would confiscate the immoral gains he made made. Perfectly legal, moral and above blared imo

The funds were not confiscated for bum hunting. So that is a strawman.

He was kicked off for bum hunting. He was banned and warned not to return. If he did return winnings would be confiscated FOR VIOLATING THE BAN. He violated the ban, they confiscated. He knew the penalty for his actions but did it anyway.

Interesting to see how many will defend thieves.

Theft requires dishonesty the last time I checked

Been playing and enjoying GG Poker, currently into my second week.

There is a couple of points I bring up, firstly in their terms (I don't think anyone has posted this yet):-
https://en.ggpoker.com/security-ecology-policy/

11. PREDATORY BEHAVIOR

11.2. Predatory Behaviour includes, but is not limited to, Bum Hunting, Collusion, Use of Artificial Intelligence, Ratholing, Grimming, Hit-and-running, Buttoning, and other behaviors deemed unethical by consensus of the poker community).

-How is hit and running defined and enforced.
What if I literally have to go after the hand?

I completely agree with a reply on this page regarding bum hunting, and where possible other unwanted behaviour should mostly just be covered via technical aspects, there's plenty of technical solution, ambiguous TOS solution is truly weird.


However, in contrary, and to play devil's advocate with some of the other comments, speculation and accusations towards GG Poker :-

11. PREDATORY BEHAVIOR

11.2. Predatory Behaviour includes, but is not limited to, Bum Hunting, Collusion, Use of Artificial Intelligence, Ratholing, Grimming, Hit-and-running, Buttoning, and other behaviors deemed unethical by consensus of the poker community).

11.4. Actions taken for initial breaches: WARNING, SUSPENSION

11.5 Actions taken for repeat breaches: PERMANENT BAN, CONFISCATION

This seems really fair, the TOS has ambiguity, but GG Poker will (according to TOS) ALWAYS (probably mostly) give you a warning first. This, along with a lack of say, screenshots from banned players detailing correspondence really puts me on the fence. It's hard to be sure there wasn't malicious behaviour occurring in the alleged bans.

I feel like bum hunting and hit and running should never be against TOS. Doesn't mean people shouldn't disapprove of it but you should be able to avoid stronger players on any site if you don't want to play them, as well as being able to leave whilst up money at any point.

I agree, and it just seems so plausible to create technical systems for this, which would mean there is an absolute rule that can't be not followed, and no interpretation/ambiguity.

I guess there is a small amount of charm to it all, not having rigid rules regarding it, and instead discouraging it.
I think these small features and designs do wonders for the ecosystem and site with regards to getting a wide variety of players in. It's hard to describe other than "charm"

But yeah, hearing about people being banned for bum hunting, really makes you wonder what the exact details are. It makes you worry if anything you ever do might be somewhat able to be interpreted by the person on the day as being in conflict with TOS, but a different person of the day may have not deemed it so. I don't want to feel scared I might be breaking TOS, when I wasn't REALLY breaking TOS and certainly didn't intend it.

The avoiding strong players you mention is a perfect example. Obviously you can and should avoid strong players, and I highly doubt this would be interpreted as against TOS... yet it very much is the same as bum hunting to a large degree.

Ah, so you're one of those cowards scared of improving by playing people better than you. Maybe you should move down in stakes to where you don't suck quite so badly. But then what happens when all the players at a lower level think "oh, I don't want to play DrBadBeat, he's so good, let's not give him action" and you get no opponents?

Absolutely nothing wrong with trying to avoid stronger players in order to make as much money as possible in as little time as possible.

Good for you if poker is your hobby and you enjoy the process of improving. But don’t blame others who are in for easy money so they can be off to better things.

There is a difference between game selection and bum hunting

Yes. I didn’t advocate for bum hunting. But you called somebody a coward for avoiding to play with stronger players.

The second I realize I’m -EV in a game for significant money (no matter which game) I’m standing up.

Personally I don't see the difference really.
Game selection is just a nicer word for Bum hunting.
FWIW I'm not against either.
The greatest skill a professional player can have is game selection. Bar none.

People who complain about tight play and bum hunting are normally not winning players or have a motive to keep those players from their own honey pot.

GG has a motive to keep bad players playing longer so they can rake them to death rather than the professional players busting them quickly.

GG is not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. They have to pay the big bucks to Dnegs somehow.