Idk if this is where I should post those but wtf. This is an issue that's been getting to me more and more over years, and it's getting the point where I'm starting to question whether or not I can keep doing what I do and be ok with myself.

I've been playing for a living for a little over a decade now. For most of that time I didn't have any ethical problems with the predatory attitude necessary to maintain to ecosystem. This was largely because most of the fish id encounter were rec gamblers with disposable income who didn't mind losing. Over the past few years, though, I've been encountering a different type of fish more and more often. I'm talking about a gambling addict who's very possibly risking his kids college tuition. Obviously I can't be sure about anyones circumstances, but over time I've come to notice a level of desperation in certain players that's definitely not indicative of a hobbyist with disposable income.

I feel like I'm playing a part in ruining people's lives. Has anyone else struggled with this at all? It's no secret that gambling addiction is a serious thing. Of course there's the rationalizations like 'they would be losing to somebody no matter what, it may as well be me. ' that rationalization worked for me for a time, but face it - it's the same rationalization everyone who exploits others for personal gain uses. I'm wondering, how much is too much? If anyone else struggled with this, I'd like to know - how do you handle it? It's getting to a point where I'm considering a career change despite the fact that I'm doing perfectly well at the moment and have no other complaints so to speak.

Remember. They’re just trying to take your money. Just so happens most of the time they fail. Not your fault. You didn’t do anything wrong.

If you don't take his money, someone else will

I don’t play stakes high enough to relate to this but if your conscience is telling you this is wrong, I would say it’s time to stop. You could always play as a rec and study the game to try to stay up to speed with how it changes, but don’t continue to do it if you’re feeling morally compromised.

Weirdly enough one of the first time I see somebody mention this side of things. I think about it and struggle with it aswell and you have written it down well. Especially when you see certain recs rebuying over and over clearly on desperation tilt - eventhough I did this desperation tilt-mode a million times myself aswell - it feels morally wrong. I don't want to take part in them ****ing up everything. I want to take part in them having a couple beers and gamble for a buy in or two and have a fun night type thing. Do I overthink too much? Probably. And does it make me a hypocrit for still sitting down everyday? Also probably. Honestly I"m sometimes thinking about quitting or going parttime or whatever aswell and this is partly the reason. Ofcourse there is the argument "if they don't lose to you they lose to someone else/vs the house", but if something is against my ethics I can just decide to not take part of it and be honest with myself.

With this being said I think it's not all super bad and a couple of things help me rationalize and "handle it":

When I played live for the first time (when I was already playing for a living online) I saw recs genuinely having fun, I was there more or less as a recrational aswell and I drank a couple beers with some people who were clearly playing for fun. Shared some banter, some are interesting people etc. It was the first time I saw the faces behind the online avatar putting in virtual chips in the middle and I was positively surprised. It wasn't as bad as I imagined (the opposite) and I can imagine them having a somewhat similar experience online. Ofc the bumhunting is predatory af, but they need players to play with anyway. And who clicks the empty seat faster isn't super concerning for a rec I think.

Also what I did for a while as like a thing of honesty to myself is just start tables and regbattle (and not fully chase drunk belugas). Not insta standup if the rec busts. It's like a way less predatory environment and if I'm open sitting or playing 3h they can decide to sit down with me. I didn't spend 100"s of hours studying the game and going through so much pain with swings and tilt to feel bad when they try to play me on my table. Unfortunately in todays game the rake is a massive issue, I see the amount of rake I pay 3h in for example nl200 and the high standard variation + rake burning my winrate = big variance and it just sucks. Also by not insta sitting out next bb when the rec busts just results into getting grimmed left and right which will add up and its just frustrating. I wish the sites could contribute a bit in making it "less predatory" for midstakes=<.

And last thing is that I notice I feel bad about it the most when I"m on an upswing and just completely crushing the recs. But for example right now down-swinging they are the one taking stacks from me left and right. And that is something I sometimes forget when I'm stacking one guy 3 times. And it's the beauty of poker, it could have been the other way around aswell. And of course long term playing 70vpip they are the one getting crushed. But for most recs there is no real long term in terms of sample. And that's also why I think regulations in terms of deposit limits are a good thing. You could argue people should be able to decide for themself what they do with their money, but with something as addictive and tricky as gambling it makes sense for the government wanting to protect those people a bit against themself. And it keeps "the fun part", but reduces (or atleast is trying to reduce) the destructive part of it. I mainly play on regulated sites and I try to notice how often the same recs are playing, and from my pov I don"t see the same -70bb players over and over. Which is a good thing imo

I wanted to post something about this topic for a while, and this was a good opportunity (hence the rant ). I hope the tips to rationalize (idk if its the right word) help!

I wrote my post before I saw this haha called it

Op, if you seriously think like this a career change may be the best. My development also stalled when not prepared to systematically predate. So I'm looking more into honing my own game for fun. Trying to win "democratically", all ideally contributing a little piece.

I think we have at least one thread along those lines every year. Same for people realizing that as a poker pro they don't add much to society.

What you need to realize is every business is about max exploitation - it's a function of capitalism and it's getting worse post covid. You can go ahead and change careers but somewhere down the line you'll be working for someone that is exploiting their marketplace.

This is bullshit. There are a lot of businesses and careers that offer value to their customers and communities. Trying to equate poker to every other career because “lol capitalism” is ridiculously lazy.

There's a difference between passively contributing to systematic exploitation fostered by capitalism and personally exploiting individuals for your own gain. It's kind of like Kant's trolley dilemma.

Obviously working in finance is just as predatory, and on a much larger scale. But there is a detachment. My issue with poker is that I look into people's eyes and manipulate them.

Years ago I had a job at a convenience store. There were people who would come in every time they got paid and quickly blow every cent they made until they were counting quarters out of the couch cushion to get them through to the next payday. Sometimes they were spending their money on vices, beer and cigarettes, but oftentimes it was just stuff like overpriced novelty shirts and protein bars priced at 3x what the same items sold for at Walmart.

Now I'm not trying to turn this into a conversation about income inequality. Obviously it's another issue altogether when people don't make a living wage.

Anyway after that I worked in construction sales. At that point I was dealing with generally more affluent people, but you would be surprised how often I encountered the same mindset as the convenience store people. People would take out loans to build fancy $30,000 stamped patios and stuff in their backyards.

You hear different stats depending where you look, but last I heard something like 60% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck.

The point I'm making is that people blowing their money isn't something unique to poker. During COVID something like 80+% of jobs were deemed "non-essential" and shut down, and notwithstanding supply chain issues people survived fine without them. Most of those jobs were industries that are ultimately unnecessary and exist only to give one person a way to pass the time and another a way to make a living. Bars, movie theaters, yacht sales, Louis Vuitton stores, the list goes on...

Now getting back to poker, in most cases I don't think it's much different than these other examples I gave. You do meet problem gamblers who might otherwise have their **** together, but are taking out second mortgages to play poker. I'm not saying I haven't encountered situations where I felt bad for winning someone's money.

Ultimately though I can't control anyone else's behavior. I try to conduct myself ethically at the tables. I don't angle or do scummy things I see in the poker world, like people befriending people they don't like just to invite them to their home games and take their money.

For me at this stage of my journey that is enough. Maybe I will grow to a stage where everything I do is consciously used for the betterment of every person I encounter. For now I'll just try to be a generally nice guy who maybe makes people smile whether I'm stacking their chips or they're stacking mine.

lol - Do I need to be the one who tells OP, or does someone else want to do the honors?

If you are just a player in a game and these types are showing up and donating, its not your fault or concern at all.

If you are the game runner and you actively work to get these known problem gamblers into your game then you are imo crossing the line of unethical behavior.

at the Flamingo like 9 years ago...(suite at caesars)

My brother and dad want to play poker but we can only sit at LIMIT tables which infuriates me

My dad is getting a massage and is forehead down on the table, everytime it is his turn to bet they have to tell him " sir it's on you"

I become tilted off the charts ....( as massages or chicken wing-eating always tilt me)

I switch tables without asking the floor

I proceed to raise every street to the pot limit for no reason... people begin to fold as i abuse strangers with my loose play

i keep asking the dealer loudly and angrily how much i am allowed to bet (because i did not understand limit rules )and everytime it scared the other players

like the 3rd or 4th hand of this i play the hand BLIND without checking the cards

I looked around at the table full of pale-skinned weak-dna degenerates like my prey. They looked like they would be more comfortable on fremont street.

I could easily soul-read their terrible Q7o hands despite them not actually having a soul left in their vitamin-deprived vessels.

One of these sun-dried excuses for a human called me to the river where he missed his flush and folded to my all-in

"What did you have?" he asked

"2 jokers" I snap-replied

The table of lifeless carcasses erupted into laughter and he shrunk to the overwhelming waves of ridicule aimed at him from every seat.

I am pretty confident he went and killed himself. I have no reason to believe this other than the look on his face. I will never forget it.

I did not play Poker for 6 years after that.

I came back about 2 years ago and love it more than ever before. This time I am actually good.

So anyways ....I don't know if this story even relates 100% but ... did i play a part in ruining someone's life?

Using the Kant and his Trolley analogy mentioned above, I'll give OP an alternative. OP has a choice between continuing playing poker against these people in poker games and taking their money, or working in the pit on the casino floor for a small salary taking these same people's money on behalf of the casino. Or how about working as a dealer in a private poker game making great tips but raking 10% with no cap for the "house"?

Okay, OP.

I'm sure you've played poker in Vegas. In doing so, I'm sure you've walked by about 10,000+ slot machines within a span of hours.

Does a casino have a moral obligation to tell their clients to stop being degenerates and stop playing -EV games and to stop liquidating their financial accounts to continue playing?

No, their only obligation is to tell their clients to gamble responsibly and to know when to quit. Those two things, are kind of part of being an adult.

If you are a pro poker player, you are the casino. The player sitting across from you has heard the "Gamble responsibly" trope a million times in their life. If they choose to ignore that advice, why does that make you the bad guy?

OP, I mean this with all respect. You could probably take my lunch money in poker. That being said, for you to come here and type all of that out. I hear you, I believe you and I think you may not be cut out for this game.

I've been in this game for decades... and I've heard this virtuous gambler shtick so many times. This might even be OPs attempt at a thinly veiled brag.

Anyways, If virtuous gamblers really feel this way, why aren't they personally giving bad players rebates out of their pocket?

What, so self doubt isn't a good quality? You just blow through everything with righteous certainty?

I’ve struggled a bit with this.

I would def say that the “oh if you don’t take it someone else will” angle is self justified horse **** and pretty scummy.

I think what one of the posters above said is pretty relevant, that they are trying to take your money and to add to that, they don’t give AF about you or your financial situation.

I guess in some spots you can be less exploitive against someone you pity quite badly, maybe don’t table talk or act in a way which is manipulative and just let the betting do the angling is reasonable.

At the end of the day the money is just how we keep score in the game we play.

also have been in this game for decades and ive either played low enough where it doesn't matter that much (even though its all relative) or where their buyins was 1% of 1% of 1% of their liquid net worth. where i have spoken up and been yelled at or called the floor by a reg is when i tell someone who is clearly too intoxicated to sleep it off. like obvious to everyone that this person is over the line drunk . i have gotten flack from regs whos 90% of hourlys depend on overly drunk people but at some point, these people have blacked out and its too predatory for me to play against that.

I remember an Antonio Esfanidari quote from like 10+ years ago. "I play poker to bring the pain."

You will get an upvote from me if you post the clip. It was a bad ass cameo

But Antonio is kind of a date rapey guy so not sure that’s a supportive analogy.

One part I love about poker is to punish my opponent’s for the mistakes they make and in some sick sense I also enjoy if someone picks up a bad play I made.

I don’t care what’s the backstory of the people that sit to play me online, it’s their responsibility to control their own behavior.

I have also lost to better players when I haven’t had my game together and I didn’t expect anybody to feel sorry for me.

Gambling addiction is a mental disease like over eating and sometimes the only way to get better is to reach the rock bottom. Wheter I take their money in a fair game or not is not going to change anything.

If we talk about unethical, for me it is grooming the whale and pretending to be their friend as long as you get to play with them but your goal is just to make as much money out of them as possible.

And sure, many of the whales are cool guys blah blah but we all know how most of these live ”pros” make their money: