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Old 12-08-2010, 07:56 PM   #1
TheShanachie
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The Empire Lesceter Square - £85,000 missing from Bad beat jackpot

The Casino in London that holds the WSOP Europe events has just paid out a bad beat Jackpot that has been running from Feb 2010. Full details can be found here;

http://www.thecasinolsq.com/gaming/poker-tournaments/

The sums are easy

The total money in the Jackpot when paid out was £222,000 give or take a few hundred.

This was half the money they raked meaning the total money raked was £444,000.

So after the Jackpot is paid there is £222,00 to account for.

The admin fee the Empire took was 15% of monies collected so £66,600.

They also paid out £150 a day in prizes which is roughly $45,000 as it ran for around 300 days.

Which leaves us with a figure of £110,400 accountable. Which is what the next BBJ fund is supposed to start at.

This is not the case. the new fund has started at £25,000.

So I an effort to find out where £84,600 of London poker players money had disappeared to I started this thread.

I will be happy to read the perfectly reasonable explanation that is to follow no doubt, or maybe they simply miscalculated and this will make them aware enough to maybe have another look, just in case.

The problem is that this has been posted on 2 other medias;

http://www.thehendonmob.com/forum/vi...=38025&start=0

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?..._comment_reply


And they are stone walling. Simply refuse to comment.

I'm at a loss as to how to advice people to deal with this bar boycotting.

I'm also looking for a contact at Harrah's as they have an association if anyone can help


MLx


TheShanachie
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Old 12-08-2010, 08:00 PM   #2
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Re: The Empire Lesceter Square - £85,000 missing from Bad beat jackpot

i'm sure there's a very simple explanation, such as them stealing the money.
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Old 12-08-2010, 08:09 PM   #3
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Re: The Empire Lesceter Square - £85,000 missing from Bad beat jackpot

I've given them every opportunity to explain and they have refused so it's looking more and more dubious
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Old 12-08-2010, 10:36 PM   #4
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Re: The Empire Lesceter Square - £85,000 missing from Bad beat jackpot

Does the UK Gambling Commission have any regulations on how jackpots should be administered? I think your best bet is a formal complaint to the UKGC particularly if there are regulations you can identify which have been breached.
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Old 12-08-2010, 10:52 PM   #5
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Re: The Empire Lesceter Square - £85,000 missing from Bad beat jackpot

lol and they say the UK does not tax gambooling winnings
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Old 12-09-2010, 12:33 AM   #6
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Re: The Empire Lesceter Square - £85,000 missing from Bad beat jackpot

Where it says this
"£150 of Bad Beat rake returned as daily spot prizes to players partaking (received cards) in House Dealer Dealt Texas Hold’em Cash Games that qualify for Bad Beat Jackpot"

Could it be possible that this is badly worded and they were giving more than one £150 prize per day?

Although it is strange that the BBJ started again at exactly £25000. Surely it would be a random amount once all the deductions have been made.
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Old 12-09-2010, 12:47 AM   #7
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Re: The Empire Lesceter Square - £85,000 missing from Bad beat jackpot

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaycareInferno View Post
i'm sure there's a very simple explanation, such as them stealing the money.
lol epic win in first reply
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Old 12-09-2010, 12:55 AM   #8
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Re: The Empire Lesceter Square - £85,000 missing from Bad beat jackpot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aek203 View Post
Where it says this
"£150 of Bad Beat rake returned as daily spot prizes to players partaking (received cards) in House Dealer Dealt Texas Hold’em Cash Games that qualify for Bad Beat Jackpot"

Could it be possible that this is badly worded and they were giving more than one £150 prize per day?

Although it is strange that the BBJ started again at exactly £25000. Surely it would be a random amount once all the deductions have been made.
No mistakes. 3 £50 prizes every 24hrs.
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Old 12-09-2010, 02:30 AM   #9
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Re: The Empire Lesceter Square - £85,000 missing from Bad beat jackpot

this is standard in B&M casinos. They don't start the jackpots back at some high amount. they let them build back up. Having reserves in business is standard. It started at 25k for the same reason that the other jackpot wasn't for the full amount.
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Old 12-09-2010, 03:29 AM   #10
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Re: The Empire Lesceter Square - £85,000 missing from Bad beat jackpot

that thing hit - **** didnt think it would happen for a while yet
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Old 12-09-2010, 05:15 AM   #11
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Re: The Empire Lesceter Square - £85,000 missing from Bad beat jackpot

440k total
220k paid out
65k admin fee
= 155k

the £150 a day is not an accurate number. they pay out £50 everytime someone makes quads, £100 to a straight flush, £150 to a royal. this is not capped at £150 a day, the average could potentially be higher.

55k to spot prizes
=100k balance.

50% of this is current BBJ, 50% to the new reserve. meaning the current BBJ should be around 50k. so it seems, there's approx 25k missing from the BBJ, rather than 85k.

obv my numbers are rounded to make it easier, but the 55k for spot prizes, is a very rough guess. considering the BBJ has been active since feb, and its pretty easy for more than £150 a day to be paid out.
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Old 12-09-2010, 05:16 AM   #12
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Re: The Empire Lesceter Square - £85,000 missing from Bad beat jackpot

also, this is key...

Quote:
Management may vary the rules or discontinue the Bad Beat promotion at any time by displaying a notice to that effect.
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Old 12-09-2010, 05:36 AM   #13
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Re: The Empire Lesceter Square - £85,000 missing from Bad beat jackpot

I don't know what the regulations are in the UK, but I do have experience with several jurisdictions in the US, and how BBJ funds can be used.
In most cases, the money taken for the BBJ goes into a promotional pool. And that pool of money can be used for ANYTHING the poker rooms decides, so long as the money goes back to the players (minus admin fees).

In this case, there would still be 85k in the pool (forgetting any previous funds). The 25k most likely was not what was left, but a predetermined starting amount. If the jackpot got hit tomorrow, it would restart at 25k (from the pool).

This is one possibility based off of how many of the US card rooms handle their BBJ funds.
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Old 12-09-2010, 05:45 AM   #14
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Re: The Empire Lesceter Square - £85,000 missing from Bad beat jackpot

i thought that at first, but then i read this:

Quote:
£10K MINIMUM PROGESSIVE JACKPOT

Balance of Bad Beat rake contributed towards the reserve (the next) jackpot
so, the new BBJ should be £10k, or the BBR balance, after costs; whichever is higher.
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Old 12-09-2010, 05:47 AM   #15
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Re: The Empire Lesceter Square - £85,000 missing from Bad beat jackpot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nutcracker19 View Post
i thought that at first, but then i read this:



so, the new BBJ should be £10k, or the BBR balance, after costs; whichever is higher.
No, it is saying that it will be at least 10k, even if there isnt that much in the reserve. There is no mention of the "balance" being used.
This is all pretty standard BBJ accounting practice. The balance is used as seed money, to prevent the jackpot from having to start at 0.
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Old 12-09-2010, 05:49 AM   #16
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Re: The Empire Lesceter Square - £85,000 missing from Bad beat jackpot

follow this link:
http://www.thecasinolsq.com/gaming/poker-tournaments/

scroll all the way down. it definately says:
Quote:
Balance of Bad Beat rake contributed towards the reserve (the next) jackpot
right under:
Quote:
15% of Bad Beat rake is retained by the casino as an administration fee.
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Old 12-09-2010, 08:51 AM   #17
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Re: The Empire Lesceter Square - £85,000 missing from Bad beat jackpot

This doesn't look good for 2 reasons:

(1) The advertised rules would create a reasonable expectation by the players that the full balance is used for the reserve.

(2) The casino should be immediately willing to openly clarify all the figures involved to anyone who asks. They are in a position of trust and there is no good reason for any lack of transparency here.
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Old 12-09-2010, 11:23 AM   #18
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Re: The Empire Lesceter Square - £85,000 missing from Bad beat jackpot

Unfortunately regulations about how to admin the jackpot drop in the UK seem not to be as good as they are in Nevada. ( or at least that's what we can imply from the Empire's actions ).

Since they started collecting the jackpot drop, almost a year ago, a few changes have already taken place regarding High hand bonuses :

1. First period : No high hand bonuses at all.
2. Second period : Each 24 hour period was divided in three and the highest hand in each period was awarded £50 ( so £150 a day were awarded ).
3. Third period : see 2 + there was a daily draw awarding every night £200 ( £350 awarded daily ).
4. Current period. There are no scheduled bonuses BUT all high hands are paid as follows ... £50 for quads, £75 for SF and £100 for RF. (£x awarded daily ).

Of course we cannot really calculate how much money they have really handed out. My best guess is that they are really still figuring out how best utilize the jackpot drop. I honestly don't think they are doing anything shady but likewise the whole thing does not seem transparent enough.

Other than that I hope they change that bloody carpet soon and get a decent toilet cleaner ( just not out of the jackpot drop please :-)
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Old 12-09-2010, 11:27 AM   #19
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Re: The Empire Lesceter Square - £85,000 missing from Bad beat jackpot

Anyone know who won it?
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Old 12-09-2010, 11:34 AM   #20
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Re: The Empire Lesceter Square - £85,000 missing from Bad beat jackpot

I just read this on the London Poker thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sciolist View Post
It was won by a colleague, another colleague was at the table. 66 vs. KK on K63, runner runner BBJ. Latter colleague said "I give him a lot of respect for thinking for a minute with 66". Am now trying to organise a regular work game.

Mechanics grip.
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Old 12-09-2010, 11:43 AM   #21
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Re: The Empire Lesceter Square - £85,000 missing from Bad beat jackpot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nutcracker19 View Post

the £150 a day is not an accurate number. they pay out £50 everytime someone makes quads, £100 to a straight flush, £150 to a royal. this is not capped at £150 a day, the average could potentially be higher.
.
They might have changed it, as they seemed to change the rules a few times after it started, but I am pretty sure it was £50 high hand and that was it, this was 4 months ago when I was in there regular.
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Old 12-09-2010, 12:57 PM   #22
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Re: The Empire Lesceter Square - £85,000 missing from Bad beat jackpot

You just realised it's a shady outfit?

Thay ran the room for years with fake cameras. Whenever someone got chips stolen they'd have to make a charade of checking the "cameras". I used to smirk watching the cr manager explain how he can't see the face of the theif "from this angle" for the third time in a month. The room used to be a cinema stock cupboard, there's no infra-red cameras bro...
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Old 12-09-2010, 02:26 PM   #23
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Re: The Empire Lesceter Square - £85,000 missing from Bad beat jackpot

this is why you don't have BBJ.
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Old 12-09-2010, 03:02 PM   #24
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Re: The Empire Lesceter Square - £85,000 missing from Bad beat jackpot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nutcracker19 View Post
follow this link:
http://www.thecasinolsq.com/gaming/poker-tournaments/

scroll all the way down. it definately says:


Quote:
Balance of Bad Beat rake contributed towards the reserve (the next) jackpot


right under:
I would read that to mean that they will seed the jackpot, once hit, with the pool they have remaining. As in, they will use the pool (not all of it) to come up with an amount to seed it with.
The BBJ in poker was a real disaster in the late 80's and 90's in California (where they were virtually born).
Unless there are regulations in the UK (I would suspect there are), then you wont get any answers.
But I am guessing they are doing it as I described.
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Old 12-09-2010, 04:58 PM   #25
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Re: The Empire Lesceter Square - £85,000 missing from Bad beat jackpot

even so, im pretty sure they would start a new reserve jackpot at the same time as they start the new one, which means there's 50k already accounted for, 225k paid out, and 65k in admin fees = 100k for spot prizes? seems high but possible.
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