I vaguely recall being told (years ago) that cards should have a thin solid white border because it makes it far easier to spot seconds being dealt. That would also eliminate any edge-sorting options.

But I'm inclined to agree that it's a non-problem in poker. And sort of agree that any casino that allows itself to get exploited that way deserves what it gets, though IANAL.

Regards, Lee

Can somebody explain to me why they don't just make the back of EVERY card completely identical? I don't get it..

Why is this useless drivel? For those of us who had never heard of edge sorting (moi included) this has been helpful.

What would constitute useful drivel?

What does IANAL mean? It isn't in the list of abbrevations posted <---thataway.

Thank you.

Lee

Because the humans that set up the equipment are not perfect beings, unless you are these guys...

IANAL = I am not a lawyer

If you want the live cash poker version of this, look up KEM card issues back in the day. They had issues with face cards that bent. People could look across the table and see whether or not opponents had face cards. It was a big thing at the time. Likely in the archives at this point.

symmetrical

No.

Another quality thread by Alling Kessleg.

So the questions is... How do we profit from this? The casino isnt going to let me or you just touch and turn the cards at Bac.

Perhaps a solid single color back....

I think the problem with that is then the card becomes easier to mark. A simple greasy fingerprint would be easy to spot.

Does that also apply to backs with a white border?

It amazes me how many people still don't understand edge sorting. OP has posted a video that makes it incredibly clear what it is. Anybody who thinks you could edge sort in a poker game is ******ed. When doing it at Baccarat it takes time to methodically set the deck up whilst making smaller bets. The reason the deck can be set up is because the dealer turns the cards and collects them the same way every time. Ivey requested an automatic shuffler because it doesn't turn the cards.

This is why it cant be done at poker. Also when the dealer spreads the cards and mixes them cards will get turned.

Why is it that Ivey gets special treatment and is allowed to touch and sort the cards? I dont get this. When I play Bac or BJ or any table game, I CAN NOT touch the cards.

Also, how does a person pull this off? Even if we see that Ivey gets to touch the cards, he has to be very careful. You have to know how the card is sorted coming out of the shoe. Then you have to know how the dealer flips and places the card. Then you have to trust that you turning the card is correct and then rely on the shoe. I still dont understand how this works in Bac. Ok, if I know the next card (I can see its low in the shoe) how do I know what the next 3 cards are (you deal 4 cards min at bac)?

I can see this being a HUGE advantage at BJ though.

This may come as a shock, but rich people often get special treatment in this world.

Rich? I dont think wealth has anything to do with this. It has more to do with gambling habbits and that is not dependent on wealth.


I found that edge sorting gives a 20% player edge when all cards are known. When just the next card is known, the player has a 6.7% edge. That is pretty big. There is a lot more to edge sorting though and that needs to be learned and studied. Sorting the cards is step only one part. THere is an optimal betting strategy that follows.

I suppose it would, to some degree.

Just knowing the first card is a big advantage in Baccarat. Here's an article explaining it. Looking at the table you can see that knowing the first card gives you a 6.765% edge.

When high rollers make deposits at casinos they often make demands and discuss certain things that they want. Most people will request a private table, many BJ players will try and negotiate to use fewer decks (the less decks in play the better for the player) etc. Seems as though Ivey made the request that an automatic card shuffler was used to ensure that the deck wasn't turned, undoing all his edge sorting work. When the cards were dealt he requested that certain cards were turned for 'luck' (or whatever excuse he could find) and so eventually the deck was fully sorted.

As far as knowing how the dealer flips and places the cards, it's pretty easy. Almost all dealers will use the same method and I'm sure if the casino was allowing him to turn cards he would have been able to request the dealer pick up cards in certain ways if they were doing it wrong.

In all I find it quite amazing the lengths that casinos will go to to ensure that a perceived whale gambles with them and not elsewhere. If I was on the floor the request to turn the good cards would have definitely raised suspicion but it seems they were blinded by their own greed.

I believe I read that John Scarne advocated this in his talks to US soldiers about how to avoid getting cheated in card games.

This was at a time when cheating was rife among those 'in country'.

Ivey wasn't allowed to touch the cards. He had arranged for his Chinese accomplice to ask to the Dealer in Mandarin to place some specific cards in a specific way (sideways) due to some superstition of Ivey regarding "lucky cards". This resulted in those cards being returned in the deck, after the deal, rotated 180°, without the dealer suspecting that this was the purpose of the maneuver. This is akin to a magic trick: lots of deception, misdirection and cunningness to hide one's true purpose.

I surmise it's also possible the targeted cards were returned in the deck with only some probability of being rotated 180° by the dealer (accordingly, whether the dealer would either turn them another 90° in the same direction or the opposite direction), while the non-targeted cards never were. But Ivey and his accomplice would have seen that they were correctly set up, when they were, on the next deal, and not have them "specially" manipulated again. The setting up of the deck would have been a somewhat longer process while the dealer would never have suspected that she was unwittingly turning some cards around.

They are good! Personally, I would be bored out of my mind and screwing up as a result by the 3rd or 4th deck though....

Thank you.

Lee

In poker though this wouldn't matter. Even if you identified the aces, the guy across from you could have a random ass hand like a set of threes and you'd have no idea.

You'd know when your opponent has aces I guess, but when you have them it is kind of useless.

Or you could use your epic edge to win all the money quickly. Knowing where all the A's in the deck were would be a nontrivial thing. Wouldn't matter? That's not remotely correct.

yeah i don't want to explain what i thought you meant before someone cleared it up.

Knowing what your opponent is holding is fairly significant.