The video below shows that a turn of the deck voids the edge sorting. Poker dealers don't do this. Scrambling the deck would suffice as well. Is it possible to turn aces and kings one direction when mucking a hand, or does the way the dealer scoops your mucked hand make this impossible. Also multiple people discarding the turned cards would nullify its benefit.

If an ace is turned one way and all other cards another way, then an auto shuffled deck would always have the aces turned that way. Considering that the dealer burns a card before the flop turn and river, the biggest edge would be to somehow be able to determine the likely value of one or more of your opponents cards from the back of the card alone. Possibly an edge in a heads up PLO game with four cards per player and an auto shuffler. Interesting video regardless.

http://apheat.net/2012/11/30/video-w...-edge-sorting/

Poker tables don't even have the security of having the casino/players being able to see the cards through a red tinted plastic to see if the cards have been marked. Why do something as elaborate as edge sorting when you can just mark the cards and get away with it?

4 sure

I always see what the top card is going to be, but can't understand why they take it and put it in a separate pile. Someone at the table said it is a burn card. I'm thinkin wtf.

Marked cards can be discovered later.

Sounds like a pretty big security leak to me.

Doesn't the muck pile ruin the edge sort attempt ?

Why not simply use cards with a design that doesn't cover the entire back and thus bleed into the edge? Wouldn't that stop edge sorting as well?

Lee

Edge sorting doesn't work for poker. There are lots of reasons but
1) As all players and the dealer handle the cards even if you turned a card it would not stay turned.
2) Cards dealt across the table spin and turn
3) Players get too few cards to turn compared to the rest also turned each hand
4) You can't see well enough across the table to see your opponents card back
5) the next card is burned....

its just not practical, poker is just way too different to baccarat with 1 player vs the house for a long session, close to the dealer/cards

I assume you're being sarcastic and are the only one that realised that the majority of poker cards have a border. The cut of a poker card would have to be off significantly for the human eye to pick it up.

http://www.kem.com/cards/KEM-Casino.html

http://www.angelplayingcards.com/en_...t1.php#PLASTIC

I wasn't trying to be sarcastic. More like incredulous that cards such as the ones you link to aren't being used. Why would a casino - any casino - want to use cards that have noticeable edge irregularities?

Lee

How can they use those cards in single deck games like three card poker and ultimate texas holdem

so that they can take your money when they work and sue you when they don't

Guess this, plus the fact poker cards usually have a border, answers your question. You surely could have figured that out on yourself (and probably for any other cardgame spread in casinos), but, I see, starting a thread brings much more attention.

In a casino one could use the fact that all the cards had backing that was offset slightly and then try to get the cards rotated properly so that one knew when the better cards was queued up. But what about someone running a home game where they buy a whole bunch of the same decks and sort out the different backs for the cards they want to stand out? After this issue rose up that is more likely to happen.

...nope

From what I've learned thus far in the two widely publicized edge-sorting incidents, a major factor is a specific make of cards. Use something other than Gemaco, and this particular problem is solved.

Does Phil Ivey crush live PLO?

If yes, we have our answer.

Not necessarily gemaco, but any card with a design pattern on back without a white frame around it.

Chainsaw, how can I use this technique in video poker?

Ah, my bad... my understanding from the other thread was that Gemaco's cards in particular had different backs for the 6-9s vs. the other ranks (due to a cutting error), and that was the irregularity that allowed Ivey to gain his edge, so to speak: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...rgata-1433932/

In the video you posted, the trick was to flip certain cards around so that they could quickly be recognized by the direction they're orientated. But it seems in poker, the cards would be turned randomly such that you wouldn't be able to recognize it by the back.

Of course, it could be that FTPNH has it wrong.

That does not eliminate possible printing and triming differences. It could still have a "fat and a slender" side.

As someone that has worked extensively in the printing industry, I can tell you that the more precise you try to get, the more difficult it becomes to be precise. Effectively what you would have to do is inspect, every deck, card by card. This could be automated to some extent, but the closer you dial it in, the more cards will be rejected. You could be throwing away 90% of your decks, and still not really be conforming to complete uniform standards.

I use, personaly, Kem cards and find them to be exteremely uniform.

Tin. Foil. Hat.

"Misregistration" is, on some level an issue in any 4 color printing process. It's going to be the most common, and easily noticable problem, and I assume most card makers, to avoid this issue, use a single color on the backs of the cards. 1 plate, no misregistration. But when you get downto trimming, that's where you are going to have a real hard problem being precise. Obviously, cards that are cut in a way that they can be ID'd is a problem. Reminds me of a trick deck you can pick up in any magic shop, a tapered deck. One side of the card is wider than the other, so you can actually just run your fingers along the side of the deck, and pull out any specific card that had been turned around.

All that being said, does it surprise me that in a high stakes situation a casino wold use cheap, poorly printed cards? Yes it does. IANAL but ... I don't see how the casino itself, for failure to properly secure it's own game, does not have some sort of liability in the situation. It's not like they totally understood what the leak was and allowed it anyway, right?

has no one thought of making the card backs identical ldo

as if there wasn't enough useless drivel about edge sorting in the other worst thread on the first page of nvg, good job chainsaw for having the presence of mind to create a whole new pile of fail