-the rake
-poor bankroll management
-spending winnings frivolously (for whatever reason, winning $20,000 playing poker vs saving $20,000 at a normal job the money is usually looked at differently. The poker player is going to live as if they're rich for a month or two whereas the the regular worker will usually live the same lifestyle and put their money aside)

I actually enjoyed reading this OP, thanks for the effort.

Fair enough. And there are lots of players that lose--there is a theory in business that "everyone gets promoted to their level of incompetence." So, when I see or hear about players who are doing well then playing at $2,000-$4,000 NL or something, or playing bizarre poker variations in Vegas with million dollar stacks, I do raise an eyebrow. Maybe they think they can win more in those games... who knows, maybe those games are really juicy. But it just seems like, not the best idea to try to take on Bobby Baldwin and David Sklansky and some other guys who are totally under the radar, in a really expensive cash game--possibly in obscure poker variations where the actual odds aren't totally clear. Of course, if you are plus EV, then it is likely to be profitable, but there is a lot of variance, and all those players are extremely tough; it is also possible that they get backers at that level though, also. And if you are making $200K a night or whatever, it would be easy to lose sight of reality. You are literally playing at the nosebleed stakes and I'm sure it's hard to stay grounded. But I would say that, for sure, the players surviving in those games are not broke; they certainly have money and are making money. If they are just a slight winner in those games they are making decent money. Personally I would just play $50-$100 or something like that if I was at that level... I don't really get why it has to become two players, both all-in for $1M each, betting their flush draw against the other guys top pair. Maybe it is the challenge, the fame, or just like the adventure of shark diving off the coast of Australia or something. But I'm sure it's like the futures market: vast swings are possible.

And as far as the other players at tournaments or in the casinos, some of them are just ordinary players who won a tournament and got media promotion; that doesn't necessarily mean that they are master gamblers. Others might be really good players, both tournament and cash, but not be "winners" so to speak. They might "find" ways to lose, play endlessly, have mood swings or various issues, be on drugs, etc and just plain not now how to handle or hold onto money. One thing I've noticed in Vegas sometimes, is that many players seem to be on Ritalin or other stimulants that are usually prescribed for ADD and ADHD. There was a fantastic article in the New Yorker about the new wave of "smart drugs", including Ritalin which has been around for a while: it went on to say that it is like the new steroids, and that in many top schools a high percentage of the students take these drugs, as it allows them to study for many many hours effectively. An entire chapter of the story was about a pro-poker player, who makes good money playing tournaments, and takes these drugs, because it makes him happier, more alert, more stable and less prone to playing hands out of boredom or losing concentration. I've noticed in Vegas that some of the younger, preppy, I'm-here-from-college, online player wanna-be pro type guys seem to be on this stuff. Their pupils look dilated, and there are other signs. Obviously players will do whatever they can to win... but this kind of thing is worrisome. Some players are essentially burning the candle at both ends, in order to squeeze more productivity out of themselves at the poker table. Of course, every young hotshot must now be under incredible pressure to be brilliant, especially at the poker table, and to effortlessly make enough money to pay back all student loans on a nightly basis, all the while dressing like a Maui surf bum with a punk rock attitude. But there's always bound to be winners and losers. I think in the long run, taking those kind of drugs will affect people's serotonin metabolism or other hormonal factors which will make them either dependent on those drugs or have other weird effects.

This is all neither here nor there though: Poker is obviously a tough world, and there are obviously losers, but there are also obviously winners. Just go play a $5-$10 game in Vegas, and you are probably seeing a few pros who easily make a living just playing. And people who can handle the gambling, take money they made in poker and plow it into other businesses and get even more stable. Players like, I mean, I don't know people's finances or anything, but I'd imagine that players like Galfond and Ted Forrest let's say, make big money.

And it is weird to see your "heroes" and find out that they are mortal... but that doesn't mean they aren't awesome. I remember, a long time ago I had watched the instructional videos of an american martial arts expert, copied him and emulated him quite a bit. Then I had a chance to train with him on Sundays. The class was in the garage at his house, with 3 other students; the guy was so mundane it was shocking. The more I got to know him, the less he conformed to my expectation of "martial arts master." He worked at this shady telemarketing company during the week, and seemed on the one hand very ordinary and on the other almost somewhat criminal or anti-social.But he turned out to be a real friend and I learned some very interesting things from him, both about martial arts and about life. It's just like if you go to a NIN concert, or a NASCAR event, or a pro-wrestling match: Poker is the same, I think. People are willing to accept you on your own terms, people are cool, but they also expect you to give them the same freedom. They are cool and individualistic, for sure not perfect, but if you think about how willing they are to be friends and accept you, you would never want to say that they are losers or something.

well in the end we all die so the money is meaningless anyways for anyone if your statement holds true

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...urrentPage=all

I like that sentence about 'life-Rake'.
---
I think there was a study of NY.State
lottery winners. Over half go broke within
the first few years.

You are simply wrong

is it that hard to believe Gus chilling in the book playing online while waiting for Bobbys room to go?

I live here, in the "in" crowd and in the know
I don't need to make it up

I see **** everyday that would make the PAD/HSP watcher in Indiana have an orgasm

Almost all the palyers lose in the game,but i do believe some win.And however rich they are,people just hate losing.

How do I know Sammy Farha is a succesfull business man? google sammay farha and read his history before he started playing poker.

brunson endorsments def offset any type of loses he may sustain through poker. he probably makes in the area of 35-50mill a year in endorsments, through his online poker room to his books and products he sponsors.

tiger woods makes around 5mill a year playing golf but he is one of the richest athletes making well over 70mill a year, his endorsments are the money maker

many many poker players go broke, but it's in now way from poker, it's from money they lose to the cage.

but the top echelon pros have no worry for $, just from their endorsments alone they make 25milla year(durrr,gus hansen, negreanu, hellmyth, brunson etc.. etc..)

also, many very rich people dont look "rich", so by how a person looks or acts doesnt mean nothing on how fat their pockets are.

how old are you? you obviously havent experienced life or have lived in your moms basement for way too many years.

confirmed everyone is busto. please lock the thread.

this

OP, you have nothing to be ashamed about....you have just realized one of the key secrets in the poker industry today, that the bluffing is occurring on more than the river. It was a great piece with tons of excellent, descriptive, and hilarious observations; one I believe every poker player should read, it's that good.

Few points:

A) The Tommy Vedes and Tony Hachem stories absolutely made me LOL!

B) You mention most players look like bums and wrecks. Well, at the end of the WSOP, most are stuck/pressure to pay off their backers and have been playing poker for almost a month straight. And they want to dress comfortable b/c it makes them feel comfortable (that and the place is just wayyyyy to cold; they really cranked up the AC when I played there this summer!).

It's a good observation on your part about how players play in relation on how they've been running a la Dwan, or a guy like Mercier who seems sick to his stomach whenever he plays cash b/c he's an obv tournament pro and is uncomfortable playing the stakes these other players play at on TV. Those guys usually get kick back from their websites for the promotional aspect of their play on television, which leads to.........

C) First, according to Doyle, players go broke several times in their career (if not hundreds, he claims he has). It just happens; bad run of cards, bad beats, game selection, as well as new learning curves that take chips with them.

BUT you said people seemed to be "programmed" to think all these big name pros are gods and have all this money. You are so right! "Programmed" is a good word for it b/c it is mostly due to poker media (not all) and television spinning out propaganda for the casino corporations (online and brick & Mortar). They WANT players to feel the chance to be as rich as these pros (even though most get stakes) to just get them in the door to patronize their casino. That means more volume in rake and casino store/food sales.

It's incredibly dishonest for FTP, PStars, Harrah's, etc. to give people the false impression it's so easy with expert play/good luck to run that needle into a haystack. That's while I LOL @ chat violations/dress codes like at Moheghan (you can't wear hoodies, wear a backpack, WTF?). and casino operators acting on a high horse in their dens of degeneracy.

It takes INCREDIBLE amounts of luck to turn a $1.10 Step sat into a WSOP seat, or even an $11 rebuy into one (and I am sure during that turbo you had some wild all-ins!). Yet in the commericals, it is shown that all you need to do is deposit and play and your in!

But in the end, they don't care if you piss all your money away (even if they give you the number for GA), in the end, they are still getting their money, while 80%-90% of us and stuck their with our hands in our pants wondering how will afford the taxi cab home. Lederer, Loveman, all these casino people will tout how poker is a great skill game and "the best player will win the majority of the time" but will still not acknowledge the fact that most poker is up to luck, and that some players will get luckier more than most over the course of their careers. Just happens.

The best pros are usually the ones who don't make millions and win big tournaments (although some of those who do are the best). Most of the best, the ones I admire and respect, are the ones who grind the levels they are most comfortable at and make a steady living. The quote in Rounders about being a Kanish or going for it like Mikey is so true....most like myself want to try to balance both....but is it mathematically possible? I truely doubt it (unless you get stakes or have a vagina to play at that volume, then maybe).

not really

all money funnels upwards to phil ivey

phil ivey funnels it to the craps table

also i'm sure a lot of these pros who are begging for money really have money. but why spend your own when some guy who saw you on tv will give you 5k

the casino craps vig goes towards paying property taxes

those taxes goes towards the gov't, whop funnel it towards bankers who then gamble with it in the stock market/derivatives fraud

it's like a degenerate gambling food chain!

BTW, how bs it is when people say, "I deposited $50 bucks or whatever" and ran up their bankroll on television that way. That's so LOL b.c you know that some of those degen pros like Dwan have reloaded tons of times like the rest of us.

1. No, but it is hard to believe Gus chilling in the book playing online and he could see opponents hole cards

2. Empty vessels make the most noise

Mods please ban obvious troll

Ultimately, a ton of $$$ is eaten up by the rake.

everyone confirmed broke.
Yeah sure a lot of players are going broke, but it's a bit ridicilous to say that a large portion of real professional poker players (not some dude who won a donkament and lost it all in 2 years) are going broke. There's a lot of players who make good money month after month for a couple of years and don't go broke.

Kinda weird but I only started to wear flip flops after I became reasonably wealthy. I buy them at Wal-mart.

Sure, it's quite obvious that many poker players have mental weaknesses that impinge on their winrate. It's absolutely idiotic to state it in the way the OP has. I'm sure most losing or break-even players probably get an ego boost imagining that even the best poker players are broke or going broke. It's just obviously not true. And how you could not mention Barry Greenstein? He alone disproves your ideas. I don't know why I'm arguing this.

dont ever stop to pick if u see 500$ bill, its always fake

No actualy they are worth quite a lot since they stopped making them in the 30's I think

Holy sh*t!! Do these guy have ZERO self control??? wow.

^^ shut up u nit

hey op, don't forget joeysweetp
he got 2nd in the wcoop for 1.3m then moved up to where they respect his raises

Having only read a few paragraphs of your post cursed, and having never played a big tournament in vegas, i can't comment on what you might or might not have seen. But i will say this, if i had money and i mean the kind of money that would actually turn some heads. i would not be walking around vegas with it in my pockets. I live in KS and we had an old lady get followed into the bathroom where she was promptly hit over the head with a hammer for a few thousand that she had just won on a slot. so looking like you don't have money may be a good way to get left alone. Another thing is when you sit a poker table for hours on end its nice to be comfortable so flip flops might be the way to go. as for whether someone is broke or not. i don't know, but poker is still after all gambling and some people do have a problem with it whether you're a pro poker player or joe nobody. So i wouldn't judge someone you only see walk by without being able to really talk to them or know what's going on.

james

I don't know where this myth of Hellmuth being a great businessman came from.

Before the internet boom, he was always on the verge of going bust. He was briefly a host (or prop or house player) at Bay 101 around '96 or '97.

Later (2000 or so) he'd come up to Lucky Chances (a few miles south of San Francisco) and play small daily tournaments ($40 to $80). He may have been getting some practice.

Most of his wealth came from the internet boom and his ability to cash in on his previous exploits. I don't think he's won much in a long, long time.

Had the internet boom not happened I assume he'd be on the rail waiting to get put in into tournaments.