Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpnrun
It was a interesting post, rings true as i know a few online mtts pros and they are very good players, smart guys and also earning around 35-50k PA for good consistent volume of around 450 mtts a week.
I kind of worry about them though, that volume means they have no time for little else. Cant get dates easily because wtf no girls really want to tell their parents they've hooked a "poker pro". Time is slipping by, theyve been at it for 4-6 years and games are getting tougher so prospects arent good really
Yet the thing is they refuse to give up on the dream, and what gets me is to succeed in today's game to have to have a lot going for you, like they do, and they could EASILY make double their income if they applied themselves to something the regular workforce. So yeah while u def can still make a decent life if you are smart and good and all those things Swoop mentioned. .....
Is it really worth it anymore? "Above the average wage" is actually pretty poor money
It depends on what your other options are. For me, i'd either be working for the Australia Electoral Commission or hosting pub poker most likely, or potentially working in a politician's elecotorate office (the job offers I got straight out of uni + what I have experience in). Those jobs would pay from 40-65k probably, high 5 to maybe low six figs maybe ten years down the track if I ended up running my own franchise in poker, getting into management level at the AEC or or becoming Chief of Staff/etc to a politician or running for office somewhere down the track.
I consider myself somewhere in the middle as far as 'good but not super elite mtt pros' are concerened. In poker i'm up something like 450k gross and 350k net after paying out backers/investors over the past six years with the general trend being each year is slightly better than the last as I improve and build my roll. That works out to just under 60k a year average tax free in Australia (gambling winnings are not recognised as income where I live, this varies depending on which country you live in obviously), which is equal to working a regular job for about 80k a year. I've also had 100k+ equity on the table about 4 times and haven't converted any of them into a six figure score through variance, i'd say in any given year I probably have about a 20-25% chance of hitting a six figure score in a single tournament in addition to the standard yearly profit from normal grinding. Does it make me rich? Absolutely not, but I set my own hours which means I have time for my girlfriend/friends, work from home anywhere I want to live in the world (currently an island on the great barrier reef) and travel internationally a couple of times a year and domestically every couple months at most for combination live series/holiday trips. It's not a Dan Bilzerian lifestyle, but it's certainly an enjoyable lifestyle.
Re: no girls wanting to date a poker pro, that would be true if they are either a) unsuccessful and incapable of making enough money EV-wise to sustain their lifestyle or b) degenerates with a gambling problem who constantly go broke or c) socially awkward which would apply regardless of what said person did for a living
If a woman was incapable of accepting that I do what I want to do for a living I would not want to date her anyway, especially if it was because she lacked the intelligence to understand basic concepts like long term expectation, bankroll management and variance when they were explained in a logical manner. There are plenty of reasons that people are incompatible, lifestyle choices such as playing poker for a living are among those reasons but so are plenty of other things, playing poker for a living has never stopped anyone who is successful in their chosen field from finding a girlfriend. One girl in particular, sure, it could happen and it does, but all eligible, attractive and intelligent women? Absolutely not.
Among my poker circle the vast majority are either married or in long term relationships with attractive, intelligent women. The lifestyle itself (flexibility with hours, travelling) appeals to plenty of women, the lack of a steady paycheck is obviously a minus to security oriented types but it's not that different to being a daytrader, small business owner, salesman or any other line of work where your income has major swings in both directions.
Regarding prospects, if you study to improve and game select it is still possible to progress through the stakes, i've seen plenty of people who work with my coach go from average regs who I could crush to being players much better than me making plenty of money, and I myself would crush the 2011 version of me that was playing poker for a living with reasonable success on Black Friday.
I don't dispute at all that some intelligent guys would make more money doing something else in life, myself probably included, but money isn't everything, it only matters if you don't have enough of it to do all of the things you want to do. For me personally, making 50-100k a year is plenty. If I was making 20k a year then yeah, I would probably go and do something else with my life, but the difference between 100k a year and 200k a year in lifestyle is pretty negligible unless having a big fancy house and flash car is important to your happiness, especially if you would be required to work 50 hours a week in a job you just tolerate instead of actively enjoy in order to achieve that 200k a year (and let's be realistic there are not a lot of traditional jobs working for someone else that pay six figures and are incredibly fulfilling that do not require years of specialised training).
At some stage in the future I might start/invest in a business/buy property/whatever to get a passive income flow, but my ability to do these things is limited only by capital, not by my chosen career path and playing poker for a living you will accumulate capital at the same rate making say 70k a year than you will making 70k a year in a regular job.
On the note of inconsistent income, the variance is only as great as you tolerate for the extra EV that playing higher stakes games bring you. If I wanted to play lower midstakes, there is zero chance that I would ever have a losing year. Zero. I would grind out 25-60k a year risk free, never have a chance at a big score, never having a sub-25k year and live a boring existence grinding out enough money to live a basic life. It's what I did for the first three years or so of my poker career.
I enjoy taking shots at 'the dream' as you call it, but would never actually risk going broke to do so because the shot-taking happens with expendable money. If my bankroll can't handle the swings for a tournament that I want to play, I sell action so that I can afford the swings. All trustworthy and competent pros who network at all are capable of selling any action that they want to sell. Could I go broke? In theory, absolutely. Anybody can, although you minimise the risk to an acceptable level. Do I plan for the future as a competent poker pro? Absolutely. I had my first six figure year last year. Did I go out and buy a sports car? No, the additional winnings were added to my roll and while I went on a couple of holidays and bought some stuff, most of the money was put in the 'lol variance happens better have a proper bankroll' fund. Had a 40k downswing earlier this year. Life goes on, and i'm on course to hit my end of year targets based on the EV I feel that I have in the schedule I play, because I play within my roll to withstand the swings.
For what it's worth, you can 'go broke' in the real world jobs too even if you didn't do anything wrong. Business you work for goes broke, your business plan doesn't work out as a business owner, you get fired for something that wasn't your fault, economic downturn happens with a round of layoffs, the industry you work in becomes obsolete... that's just life... and of course, if you do make mistakes, then you get fired for incompetence, which in a way is what going broke due to bad BRM/life leaks is in poker.
Sure, a traditional job has lower variance in that regard but that's life.
Last edited by SwoopAE; 07-19-2014 at 09:02 PM.