Quote:
Originally Posted by forbyboy
Ok, so it's a bit ridiculous to see "winners" as an evil. Winners are a fact of the game. Winners have always existed and will always exist (unless the rake becomes too high). Just as there have always been losers. That is a fact of the poker economy.
The only possible way of edging out winners, is increasing the rake high enough so that it is impossible to turn a profit.
All you have then is a lot of losers.
There are only a few motivations for depositing. Expecting to make a return (whether realistic or not), and for recreation/wanting to gamble are about all of them.
It is an unfortunate coincidence that winners also take money out of the economy, but it is an unavoidable reality in a sustainable poker environment.
The
bolded above is key -- a "rec" player wants to gamble, and part of that is he wants to FEEL like he is gambling aka having FUN, having an emotionally fun EXPERIENCE in his body and brain.
But online poker is no longer that fun gambling experience for those valuable recs (before Sit&Spin, etc... I sadly admit).
IMO a whole lotta folks esp. on 2+2 have misunderstood comments (from DNegs and others) about "winners are bad" etc.
It's not the fact that winners are bad for winning -- it's the WAY those winning players are playing online (especially in cash games) that is "bad".
Or more clearly, it makes for a bad experience for the "rec" players. And thus it's bad for the site (because those bad experiences start to add up and the rec players decide to gamble in a -EV house game that at least can sometimes FEEL FUN.
Since virtually all sites allow for 12+ tabling there is a mathematical basis for choosing a playing style that is insanely tight (to squeak out a small but semi-consistent profit at each table) ... but this playing style is B.O.R.I.N.G. for the rec players to compete against.
Look at it from their POV; it's not even a competition. It doesn't feel like a game, it feels like "man vs machine" like you're playing against a formulaic bot army. Fold fold fold fold fold raise-from-LP, one caller, bet+fold OTF. Or fold fold fold raise re-raise [fold/4betAllIn]. Lather rinse repeat EFF THIS.
Speaking from experience, when a "rec" is just one-tabling HUD-free on his mobile app or desktop computer for a half hour session during lunch or whatever, and during that entire session almost nobody else at his FULLRING cashgame table is gambling as evidenced talking in chat (other than to swear/namecall @ a donk who called really bad but hit sick to win a biggish pot off a "reg") and almost always folding preflop (so most hands are HU to the flop and end there with a single bet+fold ... or a showdown happens displaying the "reg" has yet another "top 5% hand" :sigh: ) OR they are 3betting virtually optimally against the LAGgiest of players ... well it is not just boring for the rec, it doesn't FEEL like "poker" anymore -- and sadly the more smarts-challenged amongst those recs starts feeling like "online poker is rigged" because otherwise how could he keep facing all those high pocket pairs and AceKing? (Every. Damn. Hand.) And (again, speaking from what I witness) they tell everyone around them (both the boring/foldfest AND the rigged theories) at the LIVE cash game / micro-MTT tables. Every chance they get. (But they also tell folks how much fun the new 3handed Winner Takes All game is! Yes, sadly, I've witnessed THAT a few times already too.)
I never thought I would be one to say it, but the only options other than increasing rake to discourage the rakeback grinders is... reducing the max # of tables (or allowing for anonymous tables and/or frequent name changes to discourage the HUDbotting ... but neither of those is ever gonna happen @ Stars obv.)
I personally play almost entirely live $1/2 nl now, or else play on my Android @ Stars .01/.02 nl (fullring WITH ANTES to ensure the loosest possible action) as "practice" for live -- but even at those lowest of stakes -- even with antes -- it is WAY nittier than live at 100x the stakes! That's what online poker has turned into for those of us NOT willing (or able) to grind 12+ tables at <15% vpip (if not <10%). Poker is still fun for the non-pros, if it's live poker. But only if (for reasons I mentioned above).
...okay, flame away, rakeback grinders...
Last edited by WhySoPartyous; 11-19-2014 at 11:45 AM.
Reason: clarified