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Old 01-15-2019, 05:01 PM   #26
dhubermex
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Re: DOJ reverses the 2011 wire act opinion

Statement from U.S. Representative Dina Titus (D-Nevada), via Online Poker Report.

https://twitter.com/OPRupdate/status...07788354265088
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Old 01-15-2019, 05:09 PM   #27
Sideline
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Re: DOJ reverses the 2011 wire act opinion

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Originally Posted by murdahc View Post
So does this include online poker, online sports betting and DFS? I hope so because all 3 coming together can defeat Adelson. I'm curious, out of the states that legalized sports betting/online poker, which ones are democrat, republican. Could this be a negotiations ploy as far this gov shutdown is concerned?
The opinion is dated November 2nd and most likely is just a favor being done for Adelson and the like who have paid for it.

Not only may it affect online sports betting, DFS, online casino games, and online poker, it may effect lotteries both online and off.

A lot probably comes down to if the DOJ criminal division makes clear what and who they are willing to go after.
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Old 01-15-2019, 05:55 PM   #28
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Re: DOJ reverses the 2011 wire act opinion

How, if at all, is this going to affect sites like Ignition and ACR?
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Old 01-15-2019, 06:03 PM   #29
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Re: DOJ reverses the 2011 wire act opinion

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How, if at all, is this going to affect sites like Ignition and ACR?
It won't.
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Old 01-15-2019, 06:10 PM   #30
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Re: DOJ reverses the 2011 wire act opinion

New article on the reversal, implying that the process of squeezing out existing licensed, regulated statewide online gambling interests may be a gradual process that will be contested, plus more references to the grammar lessons contained within the Jan 14th, 2019 opinion.

https://www.investors.com/news/why-d...gaming-stocks/

"Given the genie has left the bottle, we think the DOJ will have a somewhat uphill battle to successfully defend its new position which, in a sense, hinges on the original ruling being misinterpreted due to grammatical issues which misconstrued context," [Deutsche Bank managing director Carlo Santarelli] said in a research note."

"We think it will require considerable leg work to undo what's been done, and we think the process will take an extended period of time," Santarelli said."
___

There's also a suggestion that this will "delay" the incoming licensed Pensylvania online poker and casino market's launch.

"So far only New Jersey, Nevada, and Delaware have legalized online gaming. The three states let poker players from across the country compete online, but the legality of this is now in question. Pennsylvania is trying to roll out internet gaming, however Santarelli believes the new DOJ position will delay this process."
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Old 01-15-2019, 06:13 PM   #31
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Re: DOJ reverses the 2011 wire act opinion

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How, if at all, is this going to affect sites like Ignition and ACR?
It will be positive for offshore sites because it COULD mean that future states will not legalize gambling, thus reducing legal competition. States that currently have legal poker will likley have to abandon interstate compacts and offer poker to just their residents. This could completely kill the idea of a state-by-state legalize patchwork. It will be gg legal poker in the USA which was just starting to pick up steam with the inclusion of Pennsylvania.
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Old 01-15-2019, 06:28 PM   #32
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Re: DOJ reverses the 2011 wire act opinion

Really wish sites like stars or party would give the US the bird and just offer it anyways if it means this will stop regulated poker. I know, won’t happen.

Are there any real ways to prevent sites like ignition / acr from operating?
Can’t a site like stars just open a knock off version and operate to US players and basically be untouchable overseas? I honesty don’t know the laws regarding this.
I assume if ACR / bovada caters to us now, why not get a bigger and better platform to take over
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Old 01-15-2019, 06:33 PM   #33
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Re: DOJ reverses the 2011 wire act opinion

D'OH!! Maybe the DOJ will reverse this reversal if/when the current administration changes in 2020. I know, I know - both parties are bought and paid for. But some more than others depending upon donor-donee relationships etc. Sheldon-Trump/Republican Party relationship is very strong but if severed somehow, then I can see this possibility in a future.
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Old 01-15-2019, 06:34 PM   #34
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Re: DOJ reverses the 2011 wire act opinion

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Originally Posted by Sideline View Post
...My question is who wanted this so bad? Someone had to push to make the DOJ revisit this decision and write 20 pages about grammar to try and justify the reversal...
The man with the gold obviously. Most people should know by now

THE GOLDEN RULE:

"He who owns the gold makes the rules."
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Old 01-15-2019, 06:34 PM   #35
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Re: DOJ reverses the 2011 wire act opinion

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Originally Posted by apology7 View Post
It will be positive for offshore sites because it COULD mean that future states will not legalize gambling, thus reducing legal competition. States that currently have legal poker will likley have to abandon interstate compacts and offer poker to just their residents. This could completely kill the idea of a state-by-state legalize patchwork. It will be gg legal poker in the USA which was just starting to pick up steam with the inclusion of Pennsylvania.
Is it more likely now that they would decide to go after offshore sites? Or am I misunderstanding the practicality/legality of these sites?
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Old 01-15-2019, 06:49 PM   #36
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Re: DOJ reverses the 2011 wire act opinion

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Is it more likely now that they would decide to go after offshore sites? Or am I misunderstanding the practicality/legality of these sites?
No this interpretstion only affects US legal sites, the offshore sites are already defying the law and they have been at risk of another "shutdown" since Black Friday 2011. In other words by playing on offshore sites you are ALWAYS at risk of a government raid. Now however even legal site operators like Pokerstars New Jersey could face shutdowns.
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Old 01-15-2019, 06:50 PM   #37
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Re: DOJ reverses the 2011 wire act opinion

"Online poker and blackjack operations are much less developed than the lotteries, but they will have to examine how they can continue to be run in light of the Justice Department’s opinion, according to Gutwald."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...st-sports-bets
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Old 01-15-2019, 06:57 PM   #38
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Re: DOJ reverses the 2011 wire act opinion

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It seems like it could definitely be the date that current operators decide its not worth it and close down operations.
So they spent all this money on setting things up, with the plan that a simple change of opinion by the DOJ would be enough for them to just call it a day?
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Old 01-15-2019, 07:01 PM   #39
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Re: DOJ reverses the 2011 wire act opinion

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"Online poker and blackjack operations are much less developed than the lotteries, but they will have to examine how they can continue to be run in light of the Justice Department’s opinion, according to Gutwald."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...st-sports-bets
Yeah, your Bloomberg url simplifies what is going on, here is an excerpt:

The U.S. Justice Department’s decision that all internet gambling is illegal will cast a pall on the industry as businesses and state lotteries evaluate the implications of the change and the government’s plans to enforce it. The U.S. now says federal law bars all internet gambling, reversing its position from 2011 that only sports betting is prohibited under a law passed 50 years earlier.

Just my opinion, but I have a feeling Adelson has something to do with all of this.
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Old 01-15-2019, 07:02 PM   #40
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Re: DOJ reverses the 2011 wire act opinion

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So they spent all this money on setting things up, with the plan that a simple change of opinion by the DOJ would be enough for them to just call it a day?
No, I am no lawyer (thank the heavens) but my instincts (which have gotten me through a lot but of course is not always right) does not believe they will not only not call it a day but will God willing steam ahead.

Look at what is going on with marijuana in the US - despite the fact that it is illegal at the federal level (no dispute there). States are proceeding and allowing for its commerce at their level. Yet, no state nor its merchants within its border have been reigned in yet in defiance of federal law. And I suspect that will not change as the genie is out of the bottle.

I am not saying the above is right nor should continue per se. My point here is that if NJ, DE, NV and PA (in terms of their online poker expansions) are impeded, their defense can easily use the marijuana precedent that if they are being restricted, why are you (DOJ) not doing your job of restricting what is illegal federally within other areas (like pot)?

Last edited by HurtLocker; 01-15-2019 at 07:16 PM.
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Old 01-15-2019, 07:14 PM   #41
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Re: DOJ reverses the 2011 wire act opinion

Also, if they decide to get timid (which I don't expect), I wouldn't anticipate more than cutting ties between states, because if I understand this opinion and law correctly, it's only about interstate gambling.

But I'm certainly no expert on these matters.
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Old 01-15-2019, 07:56 PM   #42
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Re: DOJ reverses the 2011 wire act opinion

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Originally Posted by Sideline View Post
...My question is who wanted this so bad? Someone had to push to make the DOJ revisit this decision and write 20 pages about grammar to try and justify the reversal...
Maybe this excerpt will help you make an educated guess:

"A coalition backed by billionaire casino executive Sheldon Adelson lobbied the Justice Department in 2017 to reconsider its 2011 decision that cleared the way for states to allow online gambling."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...st-sports-bets
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Old 01-15-2019, 08:32 PM   #43
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Re: DOJ reverses the 2011 wire act opinion

I really hate CNN, but hopefully they expose this corruption.
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Old 01-15-2019, 08:50 PM   #44
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Re: DOJ reverses the 2011 wire act opinion

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So they spent all this money on setting things up, with the plan that a simple change of opinion by the DOJ would be enough for them to just call it a day?
I really hope not but who knows. Talking about WSOP/Ceasers, they aren't making that much money off of online poker and it hasn't gotten that far, yet. I think at a minimum they will be looking at whether shared player pools are worth the effort and money of fighting the DOJ if they in fact decide to go after them.

It isn't even clear yet if the DOJ may decide intrastate poker isn't allowed either and go after that. Processing payments and information can cross state lines even for a site that only allows players within the state to play.

Right now I am most worried about payment processing. If paypal and several main banks decide they don't want to do business with the sites, it will really hurt. The amount of money for paypal and most banks is so slow, it seems like it will be in their best interest to stop allowing these transactions if it is at all in question over the legality.
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Old 01-15-2019, 08:55 PM   #45
Sideline
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Re: DOJ reverses the 2011 wire act opinion

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Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
So they spent all this money on setting things up, with the plan that a simple change of opinion by the DOJ would be enough for them to just call it a day?
Also to add, none of these sites even looked at opening until the 2011 opinion was released. They felt it gave them the clear that they could run intrastate and interstate sites without being in fear of being illegal under the wire act. A complete reversal of the opinion that made them even get started is pretty troubling.
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Old 01-15-2019, 09:04 PM   #46
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Re: DOJ reverses the 2011 wire act opinion

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No, I am no lawyer (thank the heavens) but my instincts (which have gotten me through a lot but of course is not always right) does not believe they will not only not call it a day but will God willing steam ahead.

Look at what is going on with marijuana in the US - despite the fact that it is illegal at the federal level (no dispute there). States are proceeding and allowing for its commerce at their level. Yet, no state nor its merchants within its border have been reigned in yet in defiance of federal law. And I suspect that will not change as the genie is out of the bottle.

I am not saying the above is right nor should continue per se. My point here is that if NJ, DE, NV and PA (in terms of their online poker expansions) are impeded, their defense can easily use the marijuana precedent that if they are being restricted, why are you (DOJ) not doing your job of restricting what is illegal federally within other areas (like pot)?
That really isn't a defense at all. "Yea we are doing something illegal, but so are those guys and you didn't bust them."

The DOJ may very well come out and say they dont plan to go after anyone for running legal in that state online gambling, or interstate gambling between 2 states where it is expressly legal. They might come out and say they will do just that, we aren't sure yet.
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Old 01-16-2019, 06:04 AM   #47
dhubermex
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Re: DOJ reverses the 2011 wire act opinion

Op-ed by former U.S. Congressman Ron Paul for New York Daily News.

https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/...114-story.html

Former Congressman Paul blasts the "crony capitalism" he associates with the DOJ's new opinion, along with Sheldon Adelson's role in restricting states' rights to decide whether to formally legalize and license online gambling.
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Old 01-16-2019, 10:04 AM   #48
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Re: DOJ reverses the 2011 wire act opinion

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That really isn't a defense at all. "Yea we are doing something illegal, but so are those guys and you didn't bust them."

The DOJ may very well come out and say they dont plan to go after anyone for running legal in that state online gambling, or interstate gambling between 2 states where it is expressly legal. They might come out and say they will do just that, we aren't sure yet.
True, it is not a LEGAL defense. It is an enforcement defense. Former resides in law la la land and the latter resides in reality.
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Old 01-16-2019, 10:14 AM   #49
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Re: DOJ reverses the 2011 wire act opinion

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Originally Posted by dhubermex View Post
Op-ed by former U.S. Congressman Ron Paul for New York Daily News.

https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/...114-story.html

Former Congressman Paul blasts the "crony capitalism" he associates with the DOJ's new opinion, along with Sheldon Adelson's role in restricting states' rights to decide whether to formally legalize and license online gambling.
Unfortunately, Ron is no longer in power but his son who IS a crony capitalist is. In other words and unfortunately, one should now be more concerned what Rand is saying than Ron.
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Old 01-16-2019, 12:17 PM   #50
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Re: DOJ reverses the 2011 wire act!?!?

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Originally Posted by EastCoastBalla View Post
Sheldon Adelson with all his connections and money is singlehandedly ruining online poker and has been for years. And yet massive amounts of poker players show up to his casino to play tournaments. It makes me sick. If there is ever a reason for all poker players to stand together and boycott a particular casino it should be that nobody show up to participate in any tournament in the Venetian.
THIS. No poker player should ever set foot in one of his properties. Of course, many (most) will while still complaining about the state of affairs.

-BD
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