I can't believe everyone on this forum is falling for this stuff. I get it that the non-poker community believes everything they read, but the lack of critical thinking here is appalling.

The title of the post - Justice Dept. accuses Lederer, Ferguson, others of defrauding poker players out of $300,000,000 - is as misleading as the titles of all the main stream media articles being "pushed" to the front pages.

Full Tilt Paid Board With Players’ $440 Million, U.S. Says

What a bunch of nonsense. When will everyone realize that there is no money missing, you have not been robbed by FTP's owners. There is plenty of money to pay back all the U.S. players, and it is currently under the control of the DOJ and all the players who were able to deposit without actually having their funds debited from their individual bank accounts.

A few observations

1) It's no surprise the DOJ went after FTP like this. That is because a lot of their funds/distributions are in the U.S. Read the amendment. The only bank accounts specifically mentioned with balances are U.S. accounts owned by Tiltware, U.S. accounts owned by payment processors(like Sunlife,) U.S. marketing accounts(like Viable,) and U.S. accounts owned by the U.S. Board of FTP.

2) If FTP owes U.S. players ~$150M, and the DOJ has seized $115M from payment processors(including $42M forfeited to them by Daniel Tzvetkoff) prior to 4/15/2011 and also $60M seized on 4/15/2011, and now also all the other accounts listed in the amendment then the DOJ has currently seized more than FTP owes US players. Why aren't we demanding they give players that money?

3) The media hasn't been reporting this correctly. The editors in charge of the title of the MSM articles should be fired for incompetence/false reporting. The title of the other thread should be changed. It's simply not true on it's face. The 2+2 community knows that it is untrue. The numbers are incorrect and completely misleading, to say the least. The poker community should be outraged at the MSM's reporting of this, in large part because the justice dept actually used many major poker reporters work/forum posts in the complaint, but twisted everything around. Big numbers make page 1...but that's not enough. Corporate/political/media interests make page 1. You know it without me telling you.

This is battle of multi-billion dollar corporations over market share, plain and simple.

To boil it down:

1) Full Tilt apparently did not segregate players funds.
2) Full Tilt apparently credited player accounts with FTP "funds" that had not been debited from players bank accounts i.e. they floated deposits with the presumption that the transactions would go through shortly. They didn't, because the DOJ kept shutting the processors down and seizing the accounts.
3) The DOJ seized $115M prior to 4/15/2011(including $42M stolen/handed over to the DOJ by Daniel Tzvetkoff) + $59M+ seized on 4/15/2011

$150M owed US players - $174M+ seized by the DOJ = enough money to pay all the U.S. players back. And that doesn't even include the shortfall.

The U.S. DOJ/Gaming lobby does not care one bit about individual players in the U.S. getting their money back. It would be better for them if they didn't. Destroy old brand, build new better more trustworthy one. A U.S. brand.

Today's "amendment," as well as the civil suit filed in April, is an attempt to a) push non-US based online poker sites out of the market and b) recover, in the form of penalties, the profits made by those sites since the UIGEA was passed. Notice the wording of the amendment. "The FTP Insider Defendants are liable to the Government." "Full Tilt Poker used player funds, among other things(like profits,) to maintain a steady flow of payments to its owners, totaling more than $443 million over the last four years..."

Pokerstars and FTP made ridiculous sums of money from both of their operations during the period of the online boom. Many others tried as well. And the DOJ of the U.S. claims that they paid no taxes on their profit.

I can see why the U.S. DOJ was called in. I can understand why the U.S.A wants the back taxes, in the form of forfeiture of those companies/and owners assets, however and wherever they can find and seize them. But, I hate that it is the competing U.S. gaming lobby, especially because that lobby won't help FTP players get their money back. They need FTP players to never recover anything, to destroy that brand.

You can read the amendment here. Long, with many exhibits incorporated from the original complaint.

http://resources.pokerstrategy.com/2...09-20-2011.pdf

For those who did not have a lot of money on FTP, it's a great thing, because it will most likely make regulated online poker come back to the U.S. sooner. That won't help those of you that are owed $150M. The thing is, they know it's not most of you. 1) there's the small timers, which is a lot of new players making small deposits that usually lose immediately. 2), is an amount of good players. Particularly some who post on this forum. Good people, winners who try to help others and have 5k-100k stuck on FTP, and who know that their winnings have always been filtered up from the small timers. They are not worried about you or the money you have in FTP. You will follow the fish wherever they are. 3) Big-time players getting loans, who obviously took that money out and then received loans against it to play more. Do you seriously think there was anyone from 3 who kept more than a million in their account getting no interest, if that? I think not. They would withdraw to an interest bearing account and get a loan from FTP if they wanted to play big. If you had $1M would you leave it anywhere, even for one day, without getting interest?

They know that 1 are losers, 2 are good and vocal winners, especially here, and that 3 have heretofore been owners of the poker universe.

They also know that 2 will follow 1. Say hello to the new 3.

A huge unspoken(in the MSM) part of this whole thing is the politics of it all, specifically the Nevada gaming lobby. They missed out on the online boom and want their share of the pie. Eliminating the major players leaves a hole that they will fill. Watch for Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and his Nevada patrons (Harrah's, Bally's, Caeser's) to move on legislation soon. Notice the AGA's video posted today.

Seriously, why is a Senator from Nevada(population of about 2.7 million, it is the 7th-largest and 35th-most populous state,) The Majority Leader of the U.S.A. Senate? I'll give you one guess.

I say again. This isn't a case of the DOJ looking out for poker players interests, it's a multi-billion dollar corporate/political battle for marketshare of the industry.


The U.S. DOJ does not care one bit about individual players in the U.S. getting their money back. Today's "amendment," as well as the civil suit filed in April, is an attempt to a) push non-US based online poker sites out of the market and b) recover, in the form of penalties, the profits made by those sites since the UIGEA was passed.

The corporate/politics of this entire situation stink to high heaven.

These accusations are complete bunk. That you took the time to spin this tale shows a need for attention. Maybe take this chit-chat to the dump, right where it should go. Next time unclick the send arrow and save me two seconds of my evening. I could've been reading about something more substantial.

Anyways, that's just my $.02 on this matter....

ILBB

yeah lederer, and ferguson have been hiding because the company was on the up and up

very good post, echoes some of the opinions of a few people over in legislation, and good to see this backed up with facts and figures (though i haven't verified all the above is correct).

i actually read this while taking a dump.. gg ftp

excellent post, even though i think your claims are more than a bit overreaching. hard questions need to be asked of the doj and agcc, as they along with full tilt are significantly culpable in this debacle.

I agree, it's the DOJ's fault that Lederer, Ferguson, Furst, et al stole $443 million from poker players.

This is why war on terror has brainwashed millions like pre 1939 Germany. The masses are idiotic and small groups will come together and manipulate them for profit. The DOJ is corrupt and so is Eric Holder. I've tried but very few people listen. Let them lose their money then get rake raped on Caesars online.

again I missed your point why the doj is culpable in this? They said internet poker was banned, and fulltilt knew this and so did all the players. Because they didn't act for years, led many to believe what they were doing was legal. fulltilt obviousally knew what they were doing was still illegal, and hence they hiding their transactions.

Where do the doj come into this as culpable for anything? Dont give me this bs where you didn't know that playing online wasn't always under the threat of being shut down.

Steam_Rollerr, you seem to have all the answers. You appear to be sure that FTP had funds available for ALL US players and now the DOJ has seized it, but did not address where FTP put ALL the non-US players money? So where did that money go Steam_Rollerr?

I'm thinking the 115m that was seized is essentially worthless paper. That is money that, by law, can never be debited from the intended accounts because UIGEA made it illegal. Im not saying your consiparcy doesnt have some merit. But you can't prove it.

And i really don't understand how Harry Reid being the majority leader of the Senate has anything to do with this
And the Full Tilt has 100% of the blame for letting for this happen. They were greedy and ****ed up and there buisness along with there reputation are forever gone.

You are the smartest person on the entire planet. You should read fortunes, or run FTP/The World.

OP is an idiot.

Clearly some money after BF was frozen or seized but NOT ALL OF IT.

There is no report anywhere that indicates there is anything CLOSE to what is owed in the hands of anyone but the looting shareholders.

One more thing:

PLAYERS DEPOSITS AND FUNDS WERE 100% SEGREGATED

The shareholders were keeping it safe and warm. They shipped our money off to stakeholders ASAP. It was the first order of the day. They couldn't pay it out fast enough.

Evidently, the segregation tactic worked because all FTP shareholders seem to still be in possession of this money (assuming they haven't spent it)

The 500 million or so they paid out is more than enough to get FTP up and raking again and get us all paid back.

So what are these poker celebrities waiting on? CHOP CHOP. Ship the segregated funds back to the people that made you filthy rich.

We'd like our segregated money back now. Thanks for holding onto it for us.

Stopped reading here

Also,

I certainly believe the DOJ cash grab was a big motivating factor but obviously FTP was shown as being a shady company in the end. The DOJ did not tell FTP to credit $130 million in bogus echeck deposits nor did they tell the owners to take $10 million a month in dividends when the company was insolvent.

I don't trust that anyone involved (DOJ, AGCC, FTP, Tiltware owners) were on the up and up and each caused part of this collapse in their own way. It could be argued though that the DOJ prevented an even bigger fraud from being committed by bringing down FTP before more cleared deposits could be paid out as fraudulant dividends and more bogus echecks could hit the FTP tables.

I keep thinking there is something else going on at DOJ though that is related to regs or at least pressure from those that will benefit from regs.

It seems you have diarrhea of the mouth; just type whatever.

Bill Clinton was a member of KKK and a Freemason. He found the Knight's Templar treasure and is secretly buying all the of the US government debt under the guise of the Chinese government so he can establish a monarchy and appoint Chelsea the ruler.

See...... anyone can that.

The bolded is untrue. He was partial owner

DOJ seized at least as much from PokerStars as it did FTP before BF, yet PokerStars somehow avoided insolvency.

yes full tilt stole our money

And the DOJ stole our money

and ******* poker players sometimes knowingly deposited and laughed how they were freerolling fulltilt for thousands of dollars, before closing their bank accounts. THEY stole our money too.

This whole situation has *******s and scumbags all around. The entire poker community robbed each other blind. Scumbags everywhere.

I wish the fact that FTP was run by idiots/scum doesn't just totally overwhelm people to the point that they don't ALSO press the DoJ to return seized funds to players. The two are not mutually exclusive.

I agree here........We will not see one cent of our money from the DOJ......Bitar, howard and lederer are also all to blame and should get jail time if any of the accusations are true but all this ponzi scheme nonsense is just propaganda by the US government like usual.....Until the DOJ starts paying the players back with the money they seized...we should be smarter then to listen to the US government........they are the ones that messed the entire online poker up in the first place

I do not know who I trust less.

FTP vs DOJ

Asset seizure in America is a gross law enforcement tactic. I think FTP would have to put up 10% bond on the seized assets in order to get a civil forfeiture hearing. I am not a lawyer, but you would have to hire a lawyer in addition to the 10% bond.

All I know is that it happens as a tactic by law enforcement that is out of control. The DOJ actually has an asset forfeiture program. Eventually the cops will have made everything illegal and confiscated everything from all citizens who are not disciples of the state.

I think FTP is scum and have since the first time I dealt with their customer service. Clearly a bad company.

how much did he get in dividends?

Amazes me that more people can't see this. Good old USA.

If by dividends you mean BJs...he came out ahead