Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Jones
IANAL, but the part of the opinion I found most "interesting" was that there is a requirement, per the CCA, that the house must have an edge. As DavidS wondered: suppose a NJ casino unknowingly offers a promotion that has (or has under the right circumstances) a player edge. Now somebody, (I don't know - Andy Bloch?) goes in and clobbers the casino for a massive win.
When the casino figures out what happened, can they sue Andy and say "This game was illegal so you owe us that money back."?
Or suppose they offer (e.g.) 2:1 on blackjack, which won't make most blackjack players +EV, but would certainly make any perfect basic strategy player +EV (given typical blackjack rules)?
The logic of the judge's ruling puts me in fear for all the advantage players out there.
Regards, Lee
This is not at all what the Judge said. The judge's ruling does nothing to restrict REAL advantage players from working to increase their likelihood of winning. An "advantage player" doesn't mark the cards, or manipulate employees, or alter equipment in order to gain their advantage. The judge ruled that Ivey's actions effectively manipulated the cards, thereby "marking" them and providing Ivey with information known only to him. In doing so the judge ruled that Ivey breached the "implied contract" between the Borgata and Ivey, wherein both sides agreed to play by the rules of Baccarat as presented by the casino. It IS NOT WITHIN THE RULES THAT ONE PARTY CAN MARK THE DECK, OR CAUSE THE DECK TO BE MARKED, TO GAIN AN ADVANTAGE NOT INHERENT IN THE GAME WHEN PLAYED WITHOUT THE MARKED DECK. You can not CHEAT. If you CHEAT the game is not valid per the implied contract between a casino and patron.
If the casino were to offer a game where the player has a known and documented advantage and the casino uses marked cards to defeat the advantage the player was supposed to have then the casino would be in breach of the implied contract and the game would be invalid. Could you even imagine the uproar here if that had happened?
If the casino offers a game where the house has an expected advantage and if both sides play the game as presented, read "no cheating", then the game is legitimate and the results would stand, win or lose by either party, even if that anticipated advantage wasn't actually a mathematical certainty. Thus people, like Andy Bloch, who use the legitimate information available to them as they watch and play the game and apply math to that information provided soley by their observations to TRY to predict when they might have an advantage are playing the game as offered and the results would stand, win or lose. There is no law anywhere that I know of that construes this (card counting) as CHEATING, because it is not.
Also, it seems some casinos offer "promotions" where players sometimes may have an actual edge, or the normal edge enjoyed by the casino is less than when the game is played outside of the promotion (like 100X the odds on craps, or 2-1 on a blackjack, or bet $25 and get a "free" voucher for a $25 bet...whatever). These promotional games are offered by the casino and licensed by the state and are valid and legal as long as no one cheats by doing something like MARKING THE CARDS, to gain an advantage not offered by the rules of the game as presented.
It was Ivey's actions in causing the manipulation of the cards, thereby effectively marking the cards, that separates his actions from an advantage player, like a card counter. If he had asked to know if the first card out of the shoe was a 7,8 or 9 and if the casino had said okay and given him that information then he would not be in the position he is now. But, he didn't. He schemed to find a way to get that information by effectively marking the cards unbeknownst to the casino, which is CHEATING.