"they" set up a system that changes the odds based on how much is bet on the different horses. "they" set up this system so that "they" can never lose money on a horse race. if you dont see how changing odds after a bet is placed is actually cheating then i dont see how you have a problem with what ivey did.

he offered them a proposition and in their greed to fleece him they accepted.

how is that any different from some idiot thinking he has a craps system or whatever that is obviously nonsense. the casino doesn't say "sir your system does not work you're going to lose" they take his money.

and i gave you an example of the casino changing the odds mid game by shuffling when the count is good well before the cut card which you totally ignored. why don't you address this? I 100 PERCENT AM BEING CHEATED BY THE CASINO and yet i can't do anything to stop it.so are the other players at the table.

how is calling a game blackjack but paying 6:5 on bjs anything but a total scam?

is me whoring match plays or loss rebate promos scamming? i'm obviously not playing the way they want me to when they designed such things. lol@ not taking this free money. if i'm waiting for a poker game and have a 50 or 100 dollar match play i'm going to use it. it's well worth my time. when some casino has a 500 dollar slot loss rebate i'll go out of my way to take it. call it pathetic if you want- i love free money from the casino at a great hourly. they're such absolute scumbags the money is extra sweet. it's not embarrassing at all. to me embarrassing is giving the casino your money at stupid games you can't win.

and actually yes i think playing table games is basically crazy and a waste of time if you don't have an edge. call me crazy.

Other than the freeroll angle, why did Borgata think that Ivey was asking for special accommodations?

When Don Johnson asked for rule changes to get the house edge to virtually zero in BJ the casinos were okay with it. What is the difference between having an H or L marked on the card (example from the other thread) and having the dealer show both upcards (legal in the form of hole-carding)

he said it was for superstitious reasons or some such nonsense and they agreed bc they thought they were going to clean him out. they have no problem breaking rules if they still think they're gonna win.

"They" are not involved in the bet at all. They set up a system allowing us to wager, payouts to be based strictly on the total amount bet on a horse or proposition. They take a percentage of the pool off the top, and unlike a casino, but like a poker room, they are not involved in the bet itself, rather they are taking a fee to supply the game and they neither win when you lose nor do they lose when you win. Your fellow bettors do the winning or ideally the losing. "They" killed the racetrack by raising the rake so high that nobody can win anymore, to the point where the reg's are long gone and the rec's have largely quit too and Horseracing is dying. Sort of like where online poker seems to be going. But "They" don't mess with your odds, it's all about getting to rake you at a ridiculous level.

I guess you missed this part of my post when you were skimming it. Your responses make more sense now that I know you're not actually reading my posts.
If you'd made that point about counters i would have agreed. But everyone knows they can and will shuffle the shoe at odd times, anytime they want really, you can hardly call that cheating.

As I said before, I'm no apologist for the casinos. I only go to them for poker and a little blackjack or roulette for fun now and then. I've played BJ about 20 times in my life and roulette maybe 15. Like many other things, a little now and then won't hurt you and can even be fun and rewarding. But IMO spending any serious time or money on slots and table games is for degenerates and fools, and I don't think highly of the casinos for trying to exploit them. That doesn't make them fair game for scammers.

I resented being victimized by the full tilt scam, even if I got most of it back and only lost pennies. The refund didn't come from Ivey or the rest of them, somebody else had to clean up their mess. When I see this Vampire getting praise and support because he figured out a new way to suck off of the gambling public it puts my nose out of joint. If you think what he did was okay, you need to give your head a shake, and then go read up on ethics and morals. To quote my own post, this was not a victim-less crime; the victims are everyone who gambles where he steals.

My apologies if this has already been asked and answered.

Ivey lost his lawsuits in London and Borgata.

Mounting legal debt.

Full Tilt gravy train long gone.

Eroding poker skills.

Is Phil Ivey confirmed busto?? (Sincere question)

you literally said casinos won't change the odds mid game but that's exactly what they're doing.


it also screws over non counters. but casinos pay taxes and casinos have employees so **** all the customers just take all their money no matter what right?

lmao about talking about ethics and morals and casinos in the same sentence. they have absolutely none.they lie cheat and steal when they can get away with it. always have always will.

since casinos didn't know about card counting 50 years ago (or however long ago) should the original counters have had to return winnings?

Why is it if someone has an asinine strategy to win
1) it's ok for them to use it
2) the casino can know it's dumb and will cost them tons of money but not say anything

But if the person actually uses their brain it's the same as holding up a 711?

I do agree spending tons of time are machines and pit games with no edge is for degens and idiots.

Nope. Wasn't unknown to me and I don't accept large wagers on baccarat.

Its absurd. There is an argument to be made against what Phil did, but it has nothing to do with him "lying". Deception is a part of just about any game out there.

He's down to about tree fiddy

(1) Funny, that's the excuse they used with me. My withdraw was stolen/lost/confiscated by the payment processor. Yeah right. Anyway, that only happened at the very end and only accounts for a smidgen of the million$ and million$ that were missing. That is not where all the money went.
(2) Oh, poor Full Tilt, everyone stole from them. Pffffft, give me a break. Whatever.
(3) This is nothing like a CEO of a money loser bank. What the Tilt scammers did was decide it was okay to take ALL the customer funds from what was by all measures a very profitable business, and put those funds in their pockets. It didn't matter that they were making million$, it wasn't enough. Actually, it's pretty LOL to defend the Tilt scam by invoking what the big banks do anyway. Remember the sub prime meltdown? When the banks basically stole the homes and money of millions of middle and lower class Americans? The whole lot of them should be in prison, the Bankers and the Tilters too. But they're all rich and fat on our money and free to pull their scams, like the big ones the bankers on Wall Street run or this little scam of Ivey's. Hurrah for them.

Very accurately summarised.

(1) The doj confiscated ~115 million prior to black friday and they froze the accounts on black friday with around 60 million in them. Daniel Tzvetkoff stole ~42 million by himself and who knows what other processors took
(2) ~131 million was deposited to full tilt that they were prevented from collecting. i like your response to this also since that is basically my response to a casino getting tricked at their own game. oh poor casino getting beat at a game with the odds stacked against them. pffft give me a break. whatever.

full tilt owed around 390 million and without the doj hassling them they would of had around 348 million. so the points you discounted all contributed more than what the fulltilt owners skimmed themselves yet you blame them more. the doj and payment processors stole that money from us just as much as the fulltilt owners. no way would we see any of that 115 million if pokerstars didnt foot the bill.

(3) yes bankers are bigger scumbags than fulltilt owners by far and i am also ok with tricking them out of their money. my point was that ppl trying to make money from you are all out to get you so its ok if you try to get them back through trickery.

I'm not sure what points you are trying to make. Is it that I shouldn't blame Ivey and his buddies because they only stole $40 million and left $350 behind when they bailed? Or I should forget the $40 million they stole because your government, a foreign power to me, froze the money I had that wasn't already stolen and tied it up for years? That I shouldn't resent getting short changed because the payment processors they hired were a bunch of crooks that they were unable to control, and it was the processors that actually stole from me? And that it's okay to scam from a casino because evil casino, bad, bad? Have I got the gist of what you're saying?

He's giving figure to back up my point that the money issues at FT were more because of the government's actions than those of the people running it.

Ivey still won a decent chunk of money since black friday. He won couple million at Aussie millions. Then last summer (2015) he won god knows how much off that Aussie guy Matt Kirk. And then there are the Macau games. Just because Ivey can't beat autistic players like Sauce and his software doesn't mean he can't win elsewhere.

There is a non-zero chance that the casino recognized that Ivey was gaming the system and free-rolled him. Not sure if that is permitted, but you are also talking about courts in the state that get their revenue from casinos. Of course they will err on the side of the casino. What do they have to lose?

Casinos may manipulate people to gamble via drinks and excitement, but the odds for the game don't change. Ivey manipulated the odds of the game. He exploited an error. The casino doesn't have to pay you on errors of their slot machines either.

http://news10.com/2016/11/01/ny-woma...machine-error/

The judge that made the ruling is a federal judge, not a NJ state judge.

Except that they stole $40 million dollars. And that missing cash is a big reason your government took action.

Lets look at that statement for a moment.

THEY. STOLE. $40,000,000.00.

Which was over 10% of the customer's funds. Who was it stolen from? Anyone and everyone that played at Tilt (it was your money) and Stars (you paid to cover the losses.)

Now this is turning into a de-rail, which is not my intention at all. But I do have to point out that the Shienbergs walked the same rocky path with Stars that Tilt was on, and yet somehow they came out the other side with their business and their billion$ intact. My guess is that, to paraphrase Bob Dylan, if you're going to live on the fringes of the law, you must be honest. Phil and his Vampire buddies are about as dishonest as you get.

This is me, in this thread, trying to convince people that Ivey is a creep and what he did at Tilt and with the Baccarat was wrong:
Sorry to say bad things about your hero. Fanboys need to fanboy. I'll give up now.

our government took action because they wanted to steal the money for themselves to spend it on luxury items for their departments. did stars steal money too because they did the same thing to them as full tilt. our government confiscates more money from our citizens without ever charging them with a crime than all burglars combined in the usa.

you would have got all your money if our government hadnt attacked fullltilt.

had nothing to do with it. your timeline is wrong. the fraud was discovered after DOJ shut them down.

Spot on mate. But you'll never convince the Ivey nut-huggers.

Ehhh...doubt it -- if they were 100% clued in at the time, they obv would have simply withheld his winnings instead of letting him walk out the door with the money and waiting 2 years to sue him, with an uncertain outcome. Also, I believe I've heard it said that the only thing that clued the Borg in to how Ivey had angled them was when they learned about it from the Crockford's suit becoming public years later?

I'm very curious if Ivey has 10 million to even pay back. That would break even the biggest ballers bankrolls.