Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

News, Views, and Gossip For poker news, views, and gossip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-08-2018, 11:41 AM   #801
Gzesh
old hand
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: UTG
Posts: 1,868
Re: Decentralised poker is the future

Quote:
Originally Posted by btc View Post
The point remains the same, there was already demand for satellites and poker before the sites got big. Online was just gas on the fire. Please take the beer goggles off and rejoin reality.
You equate offering occasional live satellites in remote B&M casinos, yielding massive fields of (gasp) up to 600+ players for the ME, with the online and demand created among prospective players more than 50 miles from those occasional B&M events .

I maintain the "ever-available", 24/7, online experience and demand for it were something different than a one-off trip to a B&M venue to enter and play in some live event you cite.

Perhaps, you believe that there IS no difference between the two models .... In which case, try shopping at Borders Books, Blockbuster Video, Montgomery Ward or other merchants which ignored a new user/customer demand with their more limited established B&M services.

In any event, spare me the ad hominem argument.
Gzesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2018, 12:14 PM   #802
btc
adept
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 745
Re: Decentralised poker is the future

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gzesh View Post
You equate offering occasional live satellites in remote B&M casinos, yielding massive fields of (gasp) up to 600+ players for the ME, with the online and demand created among prospective players more than 50 miles from those occasional B&M events .

I maintain the "ever-available", 24/7, online experience and demand for it were something different than a one-off trip to a B&M venue to enter and play in some live event you cite.

Perhaps, you believe that there IS no difference between the two models .... In which case, try shopping at Borders Books, Blockbuster Video, Montgomery Ward or other merchants which ignored a new user/customer demand with their more limited established B&M services.

In any event, spare me the ad hominem argument.
They were occasional because the wsop didn't have a tour and the wpt did not exist yet. 600 was massive at the time in the same context that 10000 was massive at the peak internet boom years. Taking trips to the casino with friends was something people did then before society stopped leaving the house. Folks started playing online because of watching it on TV or seeing a commercial for easy $. That is where the online demand came from.

The b&m model and online model have always been the same because online poker literally copied casino poker brick for brick. Can you name the differences between the two business models? Aside from logistics of managing a room vs a server, it's acquire players and rake them, that's all their is to it. This is not a personal attack, but I dispute your version of events because its clearly lacking context from someone who was also there and your lawyerly posts keep rephrasing the same inaccuracies without acknowledging the point that there was already demand for poker before the sites got big whereas there is no demand for decentralized poker now.

P.S. yes I still buy books from a bookstore and so do many others.

Last edited by btc; 01-08-2018 at 12:20 PM.
btc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2018, 02:17 PM   #803
PTLou
Jellybean
 
PTLou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 3,569
Re: Decentralised poker is the future

Quote:
Originally Posted by btc View Post

The b&m model and online model have always been the same because online poker literally copied casino poker brick for brick. Can you name the differences between the two business models? Aside from logistics of managing a room vs a server, it's acquire players and rake them, that's all their is to it.
Im confused what any of this has to do with anything being discuss ITT.

also Gzesch is about the least lawerly lawyer I;ve come across on 2+2. Thats a good thing btw.
PTLou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2018, 07:27 PM   #804
Gzesh
old hand
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: UTG
Posts: 1,868
Re: Decentralised poker is the future

Quote:
Originally Posted by btc View Post
.... Folks started playing online because of watching it on TV or seeing a commercial for easy $. That is where the online demand came from.

The b&m model and online model have always been the same because online poker literally copied casino poker brick for brick. Can you name the differences between the two business models? ...

This is not a personal attack, but I dispute your version of events because its clearly lacking context from someone who was also there...

P.S. yes I still buy books from a bookstore and so do many others.
1. Back to chickens and eggs. ....Ain't no business, ain't no show. Who do you think sponsored all those poker television shows and online marketing efforts ? It wasn't Binions*and it wasn't Jack's Links, either..

(*As an aside, one company once ran some television advertisements for the WSOP which were co-branded directly with Binions. That was short-lived.)

2. Funny you talk about online sites' copying the live experience as closely as possible in the context of online poker. I know for certain one site, which offered a 3D-like experience, made you pick your cards up to look at them, and encouraged chat on the table, and directly took that as a design and marketing strategy. Some other sites copied it, then they all abandoned it as multi-tabling demanded a more uniform, uncluttered experience ....

3. I can certainly describe the differences between the online poker business model and the traditional B&M live poker model, but that's too much of a digression from the thread topic and not something you just get for asking. Stick to your comfortably general belief that "that's all there is to it".

4. I don't know whose remarks you think lack context about online poker and WSOP evolution, but I do not recall seeing you "there" back in the day.

Lou is right about the derail, this has little to do with the thread, other than I think there is potential demand for all sorts of decentralized gambling, of which poker can be an element in the future.

Last edited by Gzesh; 01-08-2018 at 07:48 PM.
Gzesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2018, 09:53 AM   #805
btc
adept
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 745
Re: Decentralised poker is the future

This topic belongs here: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/3...prove-1132963/
btc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2018, 10:37 AM   #806
PTLou
Jellybean
 
PTLou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 3,569
Re: Decentralised poker is the future

Quote:
Originally Posted by PTLou View Post
interesting post. I think I get it. also algorithm such as you describe has applications in lots of other markets, but lets stick to poker for the test case.

I like the idea of players that haven't yet earned enough reputation paying more rake. Bots would loose some incentive.

But, I dont get how or who sets up and then measures the policies around reputation. Is this done automatically ?
Though sort of annoying, btc is correct that there are much easier ways to address above and all sites do some form of it now.

But thats not important, poker is just a test case. that point btc does not compute.

Edit: but link to that thread was pretty funny.

Last edited by Mike Haven; 01-09-2018 at 03:52 PM.
PTLou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2018, 07:14 PM   #807
1standlastquestion
newbie
 
1standlastquestion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 26
Re: Decentralised poker is the future

So are there any secure new cryptocurrency sites operating already? Been very confused with all the launch dates and so on
1standlastquestion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2018, 09:57 PM   #808
zvonjimir
enthusiast
 
zvonjimir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 72
Re: Decentralised poker is the future

As a total IT noob, don't really get all this blockchain madness.
When people say all the players at the online tables will verify each others cards because there is no central server etc. will this process be instantaneous? It's not like dealing cards on each street will last for 10 seconds?

Not trolling and not interested in deep technical explanations, just tell me will it be insta or with delays
zvonjimir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2018, 11:07 PM   #809
Nooseknot
banned
 
Nooseknot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,051
Re: Decentralised poker is the future

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1standlastquestion
So are there any secure new cryptocurrency sites operating already? Been very confused with all the launch dates and so on
Coinpoker is easy to sign up to and has great software. There are still in pre ico and so you can't withdrawal or deposit but there are free rolls going on.

acebusters also has test tables. You use eth and convert it to "nutz". Their software isn't as developed but they are going for a bigger goal

breakout gaming I think is running games too but you need to validate completely and I think go through a payment processor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zvonjimir View Post
As a total IT noob, don't really get all this blockchain madness.
When people say all the players at the online tables will verify each others cards because there is no central server etc. will this process be instantaneous? It's not like dealing cards on each street will last for 10 seconds?

Not trolling and not interested in deep technical explanations, just tell me will it be insta or with delays
Yes its instant. You don't have to wait for verification, you can continue to play on and if anyone cheats THEN you call on the blockchain. The blockchain always verifies correctly and you lose your escrow if you don't hand in your "keys".

The game is never expected to call the blockchain since there is no incentive to do so.

It is very much like a lightning transaction. The blockchain has nothing to do with the cards and shuffling/dealing, It is only there to force players to pass in their "keys".

It is the biggest misconception out their in regard to p2p poker
Nooseknot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2018, 12:24 PM   #810
1standlastquestion
newbie
 
1standlastquestion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 26
Re: Decentralised poker is the future

Thank you for the clarification, many of us are not really interested in very technical stuff but still want to participate and have a simple understanding. Im sure your recent explanations will be valuable for me and many more.
1standlastquestion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2018, 11:38 PM   #811
mrfunnywobbl
grinder
 
mrfunnywobbl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Sentient Ant Colony
Posts: 517
Re: Decentralised poker is the future

Are people here putting alot into the coinpoker ICO or waiting for virtuepoker and others? What makes one blockchain poker better than the next?
mrfunnywobbl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2018, 01:31 AM   #812
Gzesh
old hand
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: UTG
Posts: 1,868
Re: Decentralised poker is the future

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfunnywobbl View Post
Are people here putting alot into the coinpoker ICO or waiting for virtuepoker and others? What makes one blockchain poker better than the next?
Buying coins in an ICO is not a "player" decision as such; it is a wager on a business model or concept

I personally believe (1) that other gambling channels are much more adaptable to a decentralized concept than is poker, and (2) adding decentralized payment processing systems to off-chain operations provides 85% of what 90% of those players who care about crypto will want to see in future business models. FWIW, adding crypto-denominated gaming to exisiting off-chain models will provide another 10%.

If two things are clear from the history of online poker,

1. poker sites which launch later need to compete for business against existing poker sites, this is true across centralized/decentrlaized platforms, the current of which are pretty adept at leveraging their current advantages

2. the player market for online poker demands three things first, liquidity, liquidity and liquidity. I would suggest that payment processing and perceived honesty/anti-collusion are important, but secondary to liquidity.... "there just aren't games/tournaments running when I want to play"

The future will be interesting, and I could be very wrong in my personal beliefs.
Gzesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2018, 10:24 AM   #813
mrfunnywobbl
grinder
 
mrfunnywobbl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Sentient Ant Colony
Posts: 517
Re: Decentralised poker is the future

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gzesh View Post
Buying coins in an ICO is not a "player" decision as such; it is a wager on a business model or concept

I personally believe (1) that other gambling channels are much more adaptable to a decentralized concept than is poker, and (2) adding decentralized payment processing systems to off-chain operations provides 85% of what 90% of those players who care about crypto will want to see in future business models. FWIW, adding crypto-denominated gaming to exisiting off-chain models will provide another 10%.

If two things are clear from the history of online poker,

1. poker sites which launch later need to compete for business against existing poker sites, this is true across centralized/decentrlaized platforms, the current of which are pretty adept at leveraging their current advantages

2. the player market for online poker demands three things first, liquidity, liquidity and liquidity. I would suggest that payment processing and perceived honesty/anti-collusion are important, but secondary to liquidity.... "there just aren't games/tournaments running when I want to play"

The future will be interesting, and I could be very wrong in my personal beliefs.
Yes, but since these CHPS can be used for both playing on their site and traded (If I understand their model correctly) buying into the ICO can act as either/or depending on whether you poker with the chips or hodl them. In my case probably both.
mrfunnywobbl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2018, 06:05 PM   #814
Nooseknot
banned
 
Nooseknot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,051
Re: Decentralised poker is the future

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfunnywobbl View Post
Yes, but since these CHPS can be used for both playing on their site and traded (If I understand their model correctly) buying into the ICO can act as either/or depending on whether you poker with the chips or hodl them. In my case probably both.
That is correct, and I am not sure Gzesh realizes that specific point about Coinpoker. It is a new model. It is expected that the coins will be deflationary and I wouldn't be surprised if in the future they locked in a contract that regularly destroys x% of raked coins (CHPS).

Coinpoker has a finite amount of chips they are producing, called CHPS, and these CHPS that players use as chip act as shares in the project's success. So the CHPS will be held by investors and players alike, and will go for a market driven rate/price to those that want to player poker on the site.
Nooseknot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2018, 10:54 PM   #815
Gzesh
old hand
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: UTG
Posts: 1,868
Re: Decentralised poker is the future

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nooseknot View Post
That is correct, and I am not sure Gzesh realizes that specific point about Coinpoker. It is a new model. It is expected that the coins will be deflationary and I wouldn't be surprised if in the future they locked in a contract that regularly destroys x% of raked coins (CHPS).

Coinpoker has a finite amount of chips they are producing, called CHPS, and these CHPS that players use as chip act as shares in the project's success. So the CHPS will be held by investors and players alike, and will go for a market driven rate/price to those that want to player poker on the site.
The model is not as new as you might think.

See, e.g. https://www.sec.gov/news/public-stat...ton-2017-12-11
Gzesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2018, 01:14 PM   #816
Nooseknot
banned
 
Nooseknot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,051
Re: Decentralised poker is the future

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gzesh View Post
The model is not as new as you might think.

See, e.g. https://www.sec.gov/news/public-stat...ton-2017-12-11
I'm a little confused, that links is a writing from less than a month ago. Coinpoker is effectively offering shares of their project by having a finite amount of chips their casino uses. What sites are you referring to?
Nooseknot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2018, 03:26 PM   #817
Nooseknot
banned
 
Nooseknot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,051
Re: Decentralised poker is the future

I want to crosspost this from the coinpoker thread because its a question many will have and it's quite significant if the players as a whole begin to understand the answer:
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1standlastquestion View Post
If player funds for this site are both chips and shares of the company, as shares, if the business is successful they should increase in value, either in the form of capital gains(profits are retained and used to develop the business so the chips/token are individually more valuable than before) or as dividends(the company pays back the surplus of profits to the players, as it has no intention to use them for further development).

Could you -or anyone- explain or point out to the material where this process(or the reverse if the business is unsuccessful) is detailed as for how it develops in this company model? Also how can the fluctuations in value of the token be tracked?

Thanks in advance.
Yes and dividends, for example, can come in the form of rakeback. It is all very comparable. If the business doesn't succeed there is no change to he observations, the value of CHPs will decline.

The price of the CHPs will be listed on various crypto-currency exchanges and this will establish a price. This is what is critical to note and why I say this will change everything. All else equal, the value of the token reflects the underlying, otherwise hidden, effective rake. It's a new metric for the players that didn't exist previously.
Nooseknot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2018, 04:27 PM   #818
PTLou
Jellybean
 
PTLou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 3,569
Re: Decentralised poker is the future

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nooseknot View Post

coinpoker has "chps" which is a finite token that the devs can set immutable controls on. Players need chps to play on the site and so there is a market value based on the demand. This means as a player you effectively hold shares in the company.
.
Not sure how you can conflate CHPs with company shares.

Company has a cap table with percent ownership by each owner . That adds up to 100%. Those are shares.

Company has a product, CHPs.

Players do share goal with company in increasing value of CHPs (because its quite likely owners are also holders of CHPs), but that doesn't change the cap table.
PTLou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2018, 04:38 PM   #819
Nooseknot
banned
 
Nooseknot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,051
Re: Decentralised poker is the future

Quote:
Originally Posted by PTLou View Post
Not sure how you can conflate CHPs with company shares.

Company has a cap table with percent ownership by each owner . That adds up to 100%. Those are shares.

Company has a product, CHPs.

Players do share goal with company in increasing value of CHPs (because its quite likely owners are also holders of CHPs), but that doesn't change the cap table.
What would be the relevant distinction then? Is it that shareholders are involved in company decisions and CHPs holders are not or its more than that? From the player's view its quite an important distinction that there is now mutual incentive to create a good product and playing environment. And players stand to directly gain from this if they hold the sites' token.
Nooseknot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2018, 05:06 PM   #820
PTLou
Jellybean
 
PTLou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 3,569
Re: Decentralised poker is the future

^^ yes this is clear and important distinction.

Yes, shareholders and CHP holders both benefit from CHP inflation.

No, CHP holders in no way have any sort of shares or ownership in company.

CHP <> equity.
PTLou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2018, 05:41 PM   #821
Nooseknot
banned
 
Nooseknot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,051
Re: Decentralised poker is the future

Quote:
Originally Posted by PTLou View Post
^^ yes this is clear and important distinction.

Yes, shareholders and CHP holders both benefit from CHP inflation.

No, CHP holders in no way have any sort of shares or ownership in company.

CHP <> equity.
You are speaking from a regulatory perspective, only. For all intents and purposes from the players view, it is certainly equity and no doubt special privilege in regard to the operations and future vision. And this can be programmed directly into the tokens as well, and a made immutable, and I am certain it will be.
Nooseknot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2018, 05:47 PM   #822
PTLou
Jellybean
 
PTLou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 3,569
Re: Decentralised poker is the future

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nooseknot View Post
You are speaking from a regulatory perspective, only..
has absolutely nothing to do with regulatory. Just Business 101.

Quote:
For all intents and purposes from the players view, it is certainly equity.
Equity in CoinPoker as a company? It's certainly NOT. In the same way if I Buy Gold from Mining Operation, I simply get the gold, no equity in the mining operation whatsoever.

What point are you trying to make? I'll help translate.
PTLou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2018, 05:55 PM   #823
Nooseknot
banned
 
Nooseknot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,051
Re: Decentralised poker is the future

Quote:
Originally Posted by PTLou View Post
has absolutely nothing to do with regulatory. Just Business 101.



Equity in CoinPoker as a company? It's certainly NOT. In the same way if I Buy Gold from Mining Operation, I simply get the gold, no equity in the mining operation whatsoever.

What point are you trying to make? I'll help translate.
What is the privilege equity gives you?
Nooseknot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2018, 07:38 PM   #824
PTLou
Jellybean
 
PTLou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 3,569
Re: Decentralised poker is the future

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nooseknot View Post
What is the privilege equity gives you?
umm

speaking in general terms regardless of how entity is structured (LLC, C-Corp) etc

1) pro rata share of any company profits in the form of periodic distributions to owners

2) pro rata of proceeds from sale of company.

maybe you are using the word "Equity" in a metaphorical sense. It has a very specific meaning in the business world.
PTLou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2018, 07:57 PM   #825
Nooseknot
banned
 
Nooseknot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,051
Re: Decentralised poker is the future

Quote:
Originally Posted by PTLou View Post
umm

speaking in general terms regardless of how entity is structured (LLC, C-Corp) etc

1) pro rata share of any company profits in the form of periodic distributions to owners

2) pro rata of proceeds from sale of company.

maybe you are using the word "Equity" in a metaphorical sense. It has a very specific meaning in the business world.
You have forgotten the business world is changing and the definitions are evolving and changing as well. When a player has "CHPs" they share the value of the project and inevitably part of the direction of the project. These are the things that an investor looks for when they buy shares. Periodic distributions are rake back.

I am still convinced for all intents an purposes it is the same thing and that you have not updated your definitions in regard to this changed business model.
Nooseknot is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ę 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online