Buy a bicycle for getting from casino to casino.....

Excellent advice justly deserving of the GTO Golden Buzzer award.

Boosted board useful too but not as good.

I don't play tourney's but I suspect that if a tourney is paying top 20% you have to be in the top ~3% skill-wise(number from my bum) to have a positive ROI. Being in the top 20% means you're losing because by the time half the players are gone an inordinate number of them will be bad players, etc. Then there is rake and taxes. I don't know how anyone does it but the above mentioned low buy-in games seem to be the right idea. That is, one shouldn't look for tourney's with the most bad players because that doesn't really help you if you're not elite; you need to look for the fewest good players.

I've been listening to old episodes of Just Hands, and Jack Laskey put it pretty well. Playing only live MTTs is crazy, but if you're a cash grinder, you can add selective MTTs to increase your variance and top end potential earnings in exchange for taking on risk, which if you can tolerate the absolute worst case, is a good tradeoff.

If you're a 80k a year grinder, but give up 10% of your grind time to play 40k of buyins in selective soft MTTs like the Main, you're changing your range of earnings to ~40k-1mil+. A pretty decent tradeoff, even if your median outcome compared to only cash is worse.

If your hourly in live MTTs is less than cash then you're better off paying the vig in roulette and putting some serious money on a single number every once in a while. Takes almost no time and you get your variance.

MTTs are generally softer than similar stakes in cash so it's better hourly I'd guess, esp if you consider stakes (1/3 players will play $1k-5k events or get there via satellite).

It's more like doing a few juiced odds spins on the roulette wheel.

Could this thread have the wrong title?
should there be a new thread and this thread be locked and the new thread's title be called how to play live mtt's for a living?

Thread title should be "How to be an apex predator".

sorry, i can't go back and rename it :/

I am a rec player who got on the bus with the Moneymaker craze. I played online low to mid-stakes MTTs and one table SNGs almost exclusively. Up until Black Friday, I was profitable, especially with the SNGs paying 3 places. And I made enough MTT final tables and top three finishes to make a nice supplemental income. At no time ever have I thought I was good enough to play any type of poker for a living, especially tournaments. I tried cash online a few times and just didn't like it because it was boring.

I have only recently gotten back to poker and played live the first time a few months ago at a circuit stop. Closest casino for me is 4 hours away. I had a decent cash in a $400 that paid for my expenses and left me a decent profit on top of that. I did not play cash games at all. So, why do people like MTTS? My reasons:

1. The big score, chasing the dream. I only play with money I can afford to lose, but this is huge, the potential money one can make, especially for a non-rich rec player who plays for fun, but also likes to make money.
2. They are fun, more fun than cash for me.
3. They can be an ego boost and give you some street cred, whereas cash games don't do that to the same degree.
4. Did I mention the possibility of a big score?
5. There is the aspect of intermittent reinforcement that keeps bringing people back, but I guess that is true for all forms of gaming.

So, went to my second circuit event a couple weeks ago, played two $250 tournaments and didn't cash in either. But this time I played 1/2 and made enough to cover those two buy ins plus some. I am now a fan of cash games after that experience and ready to do it again. Part of me says I should just go up when the circuit comes around again and only play cash. But, I really do love tournaments and will probably not take my own advice.

As many have mentioned, it is the expenses that eat you up if you don't have a casino nearby. And, while I am dabbling in online poker again, being in the US in a state that will never allow online poker, it has lost its luster. I have enjoyed the social aspects of live poker more than I thought I would. Plus, I also know that online games are much harder today than they were when I was playing regularly, so I would probably get crushed.

I took a look at hendon mob at guys like eric baldwin and dan heimiller, i mean dan heimiller had one big 30k cash but besides that, he had tons of smaller cashes. I was shocked he played a few of those $130 circuit events etc.



Anyone have a guess at what someones total buyins is like for someone like heimiller? The other guy eric baldwin, he sure has quite a ton of 1st place finishes and low 5 figure scores recently. Is he one of the best mid stakes grinders on the circuit and consistent? I took a look at allen kessler and still wondering how much buyins someone like him has on average a year. I mean he surely has to be profitable... cant imagine him traveling and playing all these events if it wasn't? Now what surprises me is lot of guys like heimiller travel to borgata series to play in like 540 dollar buyin with a 1 million gtd. I mean.. is that really worth it for the travel? With hotels and expenses, i dont know how that can be profitable for most.



I still dont understand why guys like that dont just play online. Are they outmatched so much or something? With Jeff Boski, i dont know how he plays so many live mtt where the buyins are pretty expensive. Does he have a backer? Do guys like heimiller have a backer?

Most of them are selling action at mark up. Some play cash games to supplement tournament wins. Some have other income streams, savings.

Even if they are selling it at a markup, is it enough to support them for a living though especially if they travel the circuit? Allen Kessler is from Vegas I believe and he travels throughout the US to play many of these tournament stops. Why doesn't he just play all the vegas tournaments and not travel? Is it because there isn't enough tournaments in vegas when it's not speak season? Also I always heard he just min cashes so I'm not sure how he does it?



Some other tournaments regs like Eric Baldwin and Dan Heimiller seem to only play tournaments and these guys seem to rarely travel that much and play in vegas. They do have a lot of scores but since they are playing so many tournaments, I assume they don't make that much?



The thing that still doesn't make sense is why doesn't someone just play live tournaments only in vegas and not travel? Travel cost a lot for flying and hotels. Why not play online tournaments? Or play online tournaments when there is not much live tournaments? Is it because live tournaments are so soft so that's why guys like Kessler and the other players do that? And they have zero chance playing online? Eric Baldwin isn't exactly a young guy anymore as he is his early 40s now but I got to assume someone like him plays online mtt a lot on like ACR in vegas?

The guys you mention, Dan Heimiller and Allen Kessler almost certainly are retired and saved up a good amount in their pre poker years.

If they break even playing poker tournaments its a win for them.

So Heimiller and Kessler didn't make the majority of their income from playing full time? I read Kessler was an advantage player in terms of the machines. But what about Heimiller? The thing is they been playing live tournaments for a very long time so isn't this both their professions for at least 20 plus years? Well Kessler seems to travel a lot throughout the US though and plays at many live tournament stops so he does that because he enjoys it even though he is breaking even probably? I always heard the term min cash with him. I think he has the record for most cashes ever.


The thing is does he get like extremely discounted rooms when playing at these stops? I know he still plays the machines as he seems to tweet about it but obviously he isn't traveling places for that right? With flying and hotels, I am confused how a guy like he does it when he seems to just min cash and it's hard to cover your traveling expenses. Heimiller seems to travel a lot less outside Vegas so that makes sense as pretty much all his play is live in vegas for tournaments. Also it seems he plays wsop events online as well but Kessler doesn't?


I got to assume the reason these guys just don't play online because not only are the games too tough but they want softer competition live and because they get more live reads which there is almost none online? Also because they like to talk a lot with other live players and that is another reason?

I'm sure allen is paying a discounted rate at whatever hotel he's staying at, cheapest flight possible etc. In one of daniel negreanus vlogs allen was bragging about getting free food from the McDonald's app. He has no kids or girlfriend. He can't have many expenses at all.

Sure he's been playing for 20 years but he probably retired early when he was in his 40s. He could have easily saved up $3-$4 million from his previous career. $4 million invested with a modest return of 5% = $200k/yr. Who knows he may also have a couple rental properties too.

The point is, if he is breaking even or a slightly winning player, that's probably good enough as his passive income covers all of his living
and travel expenses.

I think someone was tracking Kessler's tournaments and he was basically break even for like 10 years.

Kessler is definitely paying a discounted rate at whatever hotel he stays at. I recall on his twitter, a few times he asked if anyone wanted to split a cab and few times I think he had some takers. This is when traveling to a circuit stop I believe. I notice he also has lot of food comps and tweets if anyone wants to join and he almost always has takers. Well what kind of expenses does someone like him have? Well he certainly has an apartment or condo or house in vegas. He definitely has a car. But besides that, you think he doesn't have much expenses besides that at all?


The thing is he definitely plays those video machines as he tweets about it and I'm sure he is profitable in these otherwise he wouldn't be playing it. I guess with the comp dollars he earns and any bonuses, it is profitable for him to play it. The thing is was this what he did for a living before all of this? Like was he an advantage player for at least 10 years minimum and then he plays cards 20 years ago? Anyone know what was his profession before all this? I assume he was an advantage player that made a good amount of money and then just played cards? Or did he made good amount of money doing something else?


I know he mentions he is very frugal but there is nothing wrong with that. But I just don't get how he travels to all these places and even having to pay discounted rooms and all that would make him even break even with all of this. Yea I also read someone tracked his tournaments and he was basically break even in the last decade. However, that person is just using an approximate estimate of his yearly buyins for this and Kessler's tournament buyins for different years will be different but definitely not that far off so the break even makes sense. Even if he charges a markup which if he does which isn't going to be much, factor in the expenses... and being known for min cashing... is he just doing all this for pure entertainment as he enjoys traveling and playing so much that he break evens at best but has money saved up to earn interest? I don't understand how someone can want to travel so much for these circuit stops and at best break even if they are retired? Why not just play only live tournaments in vegas and when no big tournaments are running, play cash or online tournaments? Obviously Kessler wouldn't do well online but certainly he could beat live cash 1/3? Would he be profitable at 2/5nl in vegas? Does he just enjoy traveling to circuit stops to chat and meet other players? If it's the last reason... i can imagine that at least a bit.

Before I got into poker I was big into bowling. I would travel all over and bowl tournaments. There was zero scenario where anyone was making any money after expenses, but we still did it. It was fun and it was what we enjoyed. For some reason we forget that a lot of people play poker for the social aspect, the dream of a big score or because they simply like the game. Not everything is about financial EV. I've always been an online cash player until this year. I am playing a lot more live cash and some tournaments. Some of the circuit events reminded me of the bowling days. A lot of the people know each other and financial gain seems to be far down the list of the reasons why many are playing. For me, that seems like a miserable life, but for others it is not. I introduced a friend to poker a few months ago. Divorced and retired with nothing to do. Guy plays about 80 hours a week now and is having the time of his life. That sounds like pure torture to me.

When you say you traveled all over for bowling tournaments, how did you have the money to support all this? Did you have a well paying job where these expenses were not much? Or did you already have a good amount of money saved? So these tournaments still had a buy in and prize right? But with expenses, nobody profited overall.


Yes that is what I said with maybe Kessler enjoys the social aspect of poker and that is why he travels the circuit to play in these events. If so, that would make the most sense why he does that. But if it isn't that reason, then I don't know why he would do it. Well Kessler has never been about the big score as all I heard is min cash with him. Yea him liking the game a lot make sense as well but I think it has to be he likes the social aspect of it as the most likely reason. To people that encountered him, Kessler is that type of guy that likes to chat with people a lot? If so, then it makes sense.


The thing is does anyone know what Kessler did prior to cards? Was he an advantage player before this and made a good amount of money so he is investing that and thus using it for living expenses? Or did he have some profession before this where he made a lot of money? I ask this because if he doesn't have much saved, it doesn't make any sense for him to travel the circuit if he barely breakeven and can't pay daily expenses. I got to assume now he probably makes a good amount from the machines?


The guy you know that is playing 80 hours a week and loving it, I assume he only plays live cash? What stakes does he play? I assume he plays for enjoyment but also for profit right? He obviously isn't traveling for tournament events right?

Did you think for 4 years just to reply basically a rewording of your last post 4 years ago?

The answer is they are breakeven or slightly losing (playing staked/on markup) regs who are content with living that lifestyle. They probably feel "free" because they enjoy poker more than a normal job, even though they are very likely putting in more hours for less pay. They are dreaming about having that one sunrun one day that never happens. They will play live poker until they drop dead or are forced to quit due to health/age.

People like Kessler I imagine have tons of family money as he seems to be a clearly losing player that no one would pay markup to back, who still plays an insane volume of live tourneys.

That was me, I figured out you could look at the day 1 chip counts of a WSOP event and it would report if a player busted or had chips confirming they played an event. After that it was just scraping info and confirming if he cashed. This was my COVID fun project so I think I was able to from 2008-2019. I believe he had one year where he was slightly profitable, he got 2nd in a 10k Stud type of event like $220k which got him a slight profit. He was down well over a million, probably nearing 1.3-1.5 by now. I stopped keeping track but there is a twitter account that tracks every went he plays all year long.

Not sure if I have that excel file, I know I posted it here. He is near the top of the list for most cashed at the WSOP but he needs like 1.5m score to break even. Nobody loves it more then him.

Allen is pretty famous for being an advantage player, knowing when slots and video poker machines are right to play. There is no doubt he is comped out the ass. He lives insanely frugal, he gave away his beater car that sat around forever and I think he drives an ok mid range car. I assume Allen did pretty well for himself on wall street or tech, maybe he came from money...but he's out there playing a game for fun in his retirement.

So Kessler comes from a family of money? I wouldn't expect that or don't think that is the case. He seems to look like a very smart guy so I figure he must have made a lot of money with whatever profession he had before poker... or he made a ton of money being an advantage player before poker and that is why he can continue to do this despite probably breaking even at best?


So for the last 15 years that he has played let say, how many winning and losing years you think he had? Got to assume lot of small win or loss years and thus many breakeven years? The thing is since he is a min cash guy, well he can't make much especially if he rebuys or reenters? Or he rarely does that? Now if you have one rebuy or reentry and min cash, he still makes a very tiny profit right?


Yea I know he plays lot of video poker machines and he for sure is an advantage player in that. He still does that now and got to assume he is in profit every year with this? Certainly he isn't playing them if he doesn't have an advantage. Yea he has tons of comps but those comps isn't going to extend much to other casinos outside vegas or other hotels but obviously he gets discounts there etc. The thing that just doesn't make sense is him traveling around the US for all these circuit stops and everything. I mean it would make sense if he travels these places to try to win tournaments but if all he does is mincash... I don't know why he does it. I can understand going to different stops to win a circuit ring or whatnot but min cashing really makes no sense.


Yea I assume he must have did really well on wall street or tech or advantage playing before poker. Those have to be the only reasons why he can spend all this money traveling the circuit and staying at hotels right? Are there any tournament grinders anywhere like him that travels throughout the US and plays as many tournaments as him? I assume there are some that travel that circuit but stop after a few years? He seems to be traveling all the time and I just didn't understand how he can afford it since I can't imagine him breaking even when you factor in the expenses when traveling with hotels etc. Well the thing is he is playing a game for fun in his retirement since at least 20 years then right? That is what has me surprised

No $$$ in live MTT, errybody solid... i thought u knew.