how is it angle shooting/ bad etiquette/pursuing an edge by merely demanding an equal amt of time/hands for TD? if that were the case then he'd be demanding the whole table to hurry up action then, if someone was slowing action down during Limit holdem or something else he'd probably be just as outspoken about that as well

just like Daniel or someone else said, if your not gonna play all the games then maybe you shouldnt be playing any 8 game events, or at the very least just sit out

I think what kirby did goes beyond stalling. Yes, the method is basically the same, but the intent is different. He is trying to circumvent one of the games in the clearly defined 8-game rotation. When you enter this tournament, you are signing up to play all the games. You don't like it, don't join the tournament.

Comparing this to general bubble situations or whatever doesn't fly with me. The key is that this is a mixed-game tournament. With a mixed-game format, the appeal is totally predicated on the fact that the players will play all the games. The point of the format is to determine an all-around player. If everyone can just pick their best games, then what is the point? Why would anybody play them?

Kirby, like a lot of players online or otherwise, has tunnel vision and only cares about squeezing out 0.01% of EV at all costs. Daniel Negreanu when he is calling Kirby out, is not concerned about the EV as much he cares about the bigger picture. Stalling one of the games in the rotation is ****ty, cowardly, it undermines the mixed-game format, it leaves a bad taste with the players, it leaves a bad taste with the spectators, and this is one of Pokerstars' biggest tournaments. Bad for the game.

Stalling is not an angleshoot, I assume DN was just in a bad mood cos he busted the tourney. Stalling is generally bad strategy anyway, but on the rare occasions it isn't there's nothing wrong with doing it and if it's creating gameplay problems that's an issue with the structure.

For it to be an angleshoot there would have to be some unspoken convention amongst the majority of players deeming it unethical, and that convention simply doesn't exist, online at least - as evidenced by 99% of the field stalling in hypers and satellites where it makes better strat sense.

So if it would be legal to kill people you wouldn't see anything wrong with that either?

oh cool - use a hyperbolic example for comparison.

that's what I do.

agreed, if Isildur were the one doing complainging about the angle shooting this whole section would be in an uproar and this thread would be like 400 pages long

love that you are comparing stalling in an online poker tourney to murder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

It's not quite cheating, but its pretty close. Not much different than people who sit out during 8 game cash games during the games they don't like.

I more or less have lost all respect for kirby for doing this, and I would love to know who the people who took pieces of him knowing that he would do this are.

Yes, there technically is no rule against it, but if everyone did what kirby is doing the entire tournament would be a huge joke, going at 4 hands an hour with everyone stalling during a different section.

I wouldn't really expect much from a big field low stakes tournament, as it's impossible to manage that many people who are unknowns. But in a tournament like this, where 90% of the players real names are public knowledge, and many people know each other in person, you'd think something like this wouldn't happen. There are rules in place, but beyond that there is obviously the spirit of certain rules.

It just amazes me that someone can sit there and do this, while they watch the other players play their normal speed and choose NOT to shoot the exact same angle that they are getting exploited by.

Everyone mail stars to see if we can get them to get maridu to stop abusing her chat.

**** that, there's no rules for it, someone is going to "exploit" it. Doesn't matter if it's a "known" player or not.

If Daniel Negreanu doesn't go over the top as usual, there's nothing to see here.

I lol'd.

we're not samurais wins the pot!

Doomswitch is being activated on Kirby.

You better send kidpoker 0.02c to get your run good back

lol...

karma is such a ******ed concept. How many millions did Stalin kill? What exactly did 'karma' do to him? But yeah, karma is going to get kirby for stalling, watch your ass dude.

The bottom line is that people will push right up to the edge of the rules, that is human nature. Lobby to change the rules, quit complaining, or start stalin.

+ this also

++ your current location display as well

So, did he win it?

Well there's much I can say, here's how it simply started:

I wanted to play in this event, I've been enjoying these mixed tournaments quite a bit in the past few months (have only been played mixed games for about 3 months, barely any cash games AT ALL except 200-300 hands having fun playing low razz heads-up). So I asked on a friendly forum if anyone wanted to take half of me in this event. I said I thought I had a very decent edge in various games(such as fixed holdem, plo, nlhe, etc...) and that I was probably breakeven or a marginal winner in games such as stud8/omaha8. I got about 10 people for 5% a piece.

But of course I thought I had to be bluntly honest, that I sucked at triple draw, barely played it ever (I played one tournament of it lifetime before-hand, I understood the rules, the very basic strategy but thats about it)... and that I would be a major underdog playing that variant.

Here's where I made a huge mistake in assuming something which clearly was not. I thought it was REALLY common practice to stall into these tournaments for those with a clearly bad game.

I didnt know the ethics in cash games, but in the tournaments I've played (ftops, wcoop, etc...), there were stallers everytime. And I also saw people posting about how they should change the game changing method from time to # of hands (allan kessler's idea as far as I know).

So I told the potential buyers(not their fault at all, they dont have anything to do with the stalling... they didnt even mention it after my original post and I probably could've sold the pieces without saying that) that I would take it slow in that game so that I wouldnt be -ev in that tournament overall, but that I knew how the game was played and would raise or call with hands I knew to be very solid... and would stall if I think I needed to.

Note that I thought this was almost ''standard'', i knew it was an angleshoot (not sure of the exact definition of that word tbh) and ''wrong'', but thought it was very very common and that it was a ''if you dont do it someone else will profit from it''... kind of like if you wait on someone who disconnects to bluff him out when you dont know if he would snapbet into you and collect it without a second thought.

I'd add that I've seen at least 3 players do the same in this very tournament, but I wont give names as I'm in no position, obviously.

I didnt care too much at first with the blinds being small, but as we got deeper I started taking more time, and consuming some of my timebank at certain parts seeing as I had a ton. I had told the buyers that I'd do it so I did it, I feel I really had to(no im not putting it all on my ''word'' to the buyers, of course I wont lie and say I didnt care about the money, too). I took a LOT of time when we were 20 left and they paid 18. That was just embarassing. Especially with all the insults I received.

I got quite a sick rush of cards in the last round of triple draw and played a lot of them and racked in some chips.


From all the feedback I DEFINITELY overestimated the number of highstakes player doing this in mixed tournaments, and I regret saying to the backers that I'd do it. I do realize I might not have been as fortunate if I didnt. Opinions seem to vastly differ on the subject. Tournament players seem to think it is more ''standard'', while cash game players seem to completely despise it (I've been told it's illegal in cash games which I didnt know). Also, it seems to resonnate in a much much much worse way with live players.



I can understand all of that.

All I can say is sorry for taking advantage of an unethical feature. And to be brutally honest, I still dont know if I'd do it again in aparallel universe. It still seems like such a thin line...


one thing's for sure is I'll practice triple draw and wont need to.


Also, I think stars should follow chainsaw's idea of # hands per level instead of minutes for mixed tournies.



gotta go to bed ~

KIRBYNATOR

Sounds reasonable to me.

^ good post kirby

the best thing I got out of this was the samurai line, that was very solid - makes up for the angleshoot plus some

obv what was done was against the spirit of the game but anyone calling him scumbag, etc. for doing it needs his head checked

also anyone who can't see how this is at least somewhat similar to UTG+3 stalling bubble 2 players before hfh, short stacked for a significant payout is out to lunch

anyone who says they NEVER stall in above situation is almost certainly a liar and/or stupid