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Old 06-21-2008, 06:08 PM   #201
BartJ385
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Re: A critique of poker and poker players

OP is like Michael Moore.

He makes a lot of valid points, important points, but is afraid that he might go unnoticed, so he mixes in a lot of nonsense, sometimes even though he knows better.

You're on your own, mate. Flame away, nerds.
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Old 06-21-2008, 06:15 PM   #202
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Re: A critique of poker and poker players

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Originally Posted by bobboufl11 View Post
Telling people to learn the bare basics isn't helping...though if someone was dumb enough to believe that once you've played for a few months everyone is equal they deserve it.
I like to try and expose the blindspots and darker parts of poker that people often do not acknowledge and tend to ignore. All people seem to get told is they can get rich from poker. I would advise anyone to goto pokertube.com and such for bustouts and see the real world of poker before your very eyes. And guess what? a lot of it isn't all roses how many posters here are making out. Ever seen a big player on the vegas tournament circuit up a million one yea, then beggin for 20 dollars the following year? it happens. It pays to be realistic about poker and get all the facts and then try and make a go of it.

(and no I don;' feature in the bustouts video on pokertube--that no smoke witout fire argument has been extinguished)

Thanks.

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Please poast a winning graph, I refuse to believe someone who beats poker thinks this way. I used to sort of think this before I came here but there's only so much you can blame on bad luck before you have to take responsibility for the leaks in your game and [B]learn and evolve as a player]
ask yourself why that would be so alien? Its the same mentality that someone has if they win big at slots..they aren't going to be objective about slots they are gonn love slots..it's what keeps bringing people back..why do you think a slot machine makes a song and dance when you win and is silent when you lose? pavolovian conditioning.

skill can only take you so far and even then at times skill wont matter at all, why? cus u gotta gamble andskill will never be able to help you see all the blindspots in poker. You will run into traps, you will get a read on someone that will be totally wrong (especially online) very often.
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Old 06-21-2008, 06:17 PM   #203
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Re: A critique of poker and poker players

There is a lot of truth to the first point. The others make you look like you don't understand the basics of the game. I admire your courage.
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Old 06-21-2008, 06:20 PM   #204
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Re: A critique of poker and poker players

Quote:
Originally Posted by BartJ385 View Post
OP is like Michael Moore.

He makes a lot of valid points, important points, but is afraid that he might go unnoticed, so he mixes in a lot of nonsense, sometimes even though he knows better.

You're on your own, mate. Flame away, nerds.
Nothing like Micheal Moore. And i'm not afraid I might go unnoticed. I just hope to reach a few and get them thinking about the darker side of poker so they do not get duped into thinking its all skill mastery and bellagio buffet.
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Old 06-21-2008, 06:24 PM   #205
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Re: A critique of poker and poker players

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Originally Posted by josecuervos View Post
There is a lot of truth to the first point. The others make you look like you don't understand the basics of the game. I admire your courage.
I have read Skalansky's, The Theory Of Poker, Negreanu's Holdem Wisdom and T.J. Cloutier's book on tournament poker. Does that mean I am qualified to speak?
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Old 06-21-2008, 06:42 PM   #206
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Re: A critique of poker and poker players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Britessential View Post
I like to try and expose the blindspots and darker parts of poker that people often do not acknowledge and tend to ignore. All people seem to get told is they can get rich from poker. I would advise anyone to goto pokertube.com and such for bustouts and see the real world of poker before your very eyes. And guess what? a lot of it isn't all roses how many posters here are making out. Ever seen a big player on the vegas tournament circuit up a million one yea, then beggin for 20 dollars the following year? it happens. It pays to be realistic about poker and get all the facts and then try and make a go of it.
bankroll management is also a part of poker... obviously this is a blindspot that you are overlooking or choosing to ignore

id be willing to bet any of those people that were up a million one year and begging for 20 dollars the next year were not managing their bankroll properly

instead of pointing out the pitfalls, it would be more productive to explain how to avoid them

you are right, it pays to get all the facts and then try and make a go of it... but i dont think you are following your own advice here
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Old 06-21-2008, 06:48 PM   #207
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Re: A critique of poker and poker players

so can we get any tangible proof that u r indeed a winning player?
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Old 06-21-2008, 06:48 PM   #208
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Re: A critique of poker and poker players

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Nothing like Micheal Moore. And i'm not afraid I might go unnoticed. I just hope to reach a few and get them thinking about the darker side of poker so they do not get duped into thinking its all skill mastery and bellagio buffet.
Unreal. My point was that you mix in nonsense, even against your own better judgement. I find no reply to that in this "reply".
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Old 06-21-2008, 06:54 PM   #209
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Re: A critique of poker and poker players

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Unreal. My point was that you mix in nonsense, even against your own better judgement. I find no reply to that in this "reply".
what is this nonsense you speak of?
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Old 06-21-2008, 06:57 PM   #210
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Re: A critique of poker and poker players

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bankroll management is also a part of poker... obviously this is a blindspot that you are overlooking or choosing to ignore

id be willing to bet any of those people that were up a million one year and begging for 20 dollars the next year were not managing their bankroll properly

instead of pointing out the pitfalls, it would be more productive to explain how to avoid them

you are right, it pays to get all the facts and then try and make a go of it... but i dont think you are following your own advice here
I mentioned bankroll earlier in this thread. Whether they had bankroll management or not, that is beside the point when I am just highlighting some of the pitfalls of that can and do happen and why, and additionally why poker players in general are not realistic about the darker sides of the game. They even use words like "variance" because they are so scared of a thing called "luck" and being out of control..
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Old 06-21-2008, 07:08 PM   #211
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Re: A critique of poker and poker players

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Originally Posted by Britessential View Post
I have read Skalansky's, The Theory Of Poker, Negreanu's Holdem Wisdom and T.J. Cloutier's book on tournament poker. Does that mean I am qualified to speak?
lol okay guys you can now rest assured that this is fellow is nothing but someone's terrible level
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Old 06-21-2008, 07:16 PM   #212
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Re: A critique of poker and poker players

Brit,

Let me tell you something you already know. The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It is a very mean and nasty place, and I don't care how tough you are, it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it. You, me or nobody is going to hit as hard as life. But it ain't about how hard you hit, it is about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward, how much can you take and keep moving forward. That's how winning is done! Now, if you know what you're worth, then go out and get what you're worth. But you gotta be willing to take the hit, and not pointing fingers saying you ain't where you are because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that and that ain't you. You're better than that!
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Old 06-21-2008, 07:16 PM   #213
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Re: A critique of poker and poker players

OP, I hope this a giant level, if so well done.

if not, you are sadly mistaken. Varience has a meaning, it simply refers to the luck factor which is pretty significant. In Limit hold em this luck evens out somewhere around 200,000 hands. In big tournements, the luck factor will probably never even out in your lifetime. Thus, the varience of tournements is higher than the varience of limit hold em.

I've play hole em "as a pro" for a few years, and while I don't have an exactly "wage", I make a certain amount overall which falls within X standard deviations of my hypothetical win rate. If you really think someone can't be a pro poker player, you are simply wrong and in denial.
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Old 06-21-2008, 07:20 PM   #214
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Re: A critique of poker and poker players

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lol okay guys you can now rest assured that this is fellow is nothing but someone's terrible level
yeah im beginning to think you are right
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Old 06-21-2008, 07:56 PM   #215
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Re: A critique of poker and poker players

Here's an example where OP is right. A lot of people on 2+2 say: "Everyone can beat the lower limits, and make money playing poker". That's an outright lie. Without talent, you will be a losing player and that will not change. You maybe able to improve your results by honing your skills, but without talent, you will lose money in the long run. As simple as that. So whoever claims that they can take any player and turn him into a winner is a liar.

Here's an example where OP is wrong: OP says that online poker is very much a guessing game. That is true. But what he doesn't see is that these guesses are so-called 'educated' guesses. Yes, you can't be sure about anything, at any stage. Every time there is chance that you are wrong.
But obviously someone who uses more additional information than others will come more often to the correct conclusion. And thus he will win a few extra hands and avoid a few extra losses in the long run.

Sheer luck cannot account for winning month after month. No one can be so silly to believe that.

But being able to see the additional info, and to use it, takes more than skill; it takes talent. Too many people persuade themselves that they have this talent ... and then go on losing.

Last edited by BartJ385; 06-21-2008 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 06-21-2008, 08:58 PM   #216
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Re: A critique of poker and poker players

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Originally Posted by BartJ385 View Post
Here's an example where OP is right. A lot of people on 2+2 say: "Everyone can beat the lower limits, and make money playing poker". That's an outright lie. Without talent, you will be a losing player and that will not change. You maybe able to improve your results by honing your skills, but without talent, you will lose money in the long run. As simple as that. So whoever claims that they can take any player and turn him into a winner is a liar.

Here's an example where OP is wrong: OP says that online poker is very much a guessing game. That is true. But what he doesn't see is that these guesses are so-called 'educated' guesses. Yes, you can't be sure about anything, at any stage. Every time there is chance that you are wrong.
But obviously someone who uses more additional information than others will come more often to the correct conclusion. And thus he will win a few extra hands and avoid a few extra losses in the long run.

Sheer luck cannot account for winning month after month. No one can be so silly to believe that.

But being able to see the additional info, and to use it, takes more than skill; it takes talent. Too many people persuade themselves that they have this talent ... and then go on losing.
I am firmly convinced you could take anyone with average intelligence who is currently losing at NL50 or below, and make them a winner. I think it is almost non-debatable.
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Old 06-21-2008, 08:59 PM   #217
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Re: A critique of poker and poker players

It's a level, everybody is wasting their time.
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Old 06-22-2008, 02:30 AM   #218
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Re: A critique of poker and poker players

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I am firmly convinced you could take anyone with average intelligence who is currently losing at NL50 or below, and make them a winner. I think it is almost non-debatable.
This makes no sense. We know that less than 1 out of 10 players is a longterm winner after rake. And yet you say "everyone can be a winner". How can that be possible? Are 9/10 players just bloody idiots who could be winners if only they read a book?

Non-debatable???
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Old 06-22-2008, 06:44 AM   #219
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Re: A critique of poker and poker players

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This makes no sense. We know that less than 1 out of 10 players is a longterm winner after rake. And yet you say "everyone can be a winner". How can that be possible? Are 9/10 players just bloody idiots who could be winners if only they read a book?

Non-debatable???
I think his point is that player who beat those stakes generally move up, thus most of the players at those stakes are quite weak.
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Old 06-22-2008, 07:35 AM   #220
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Re: A critique of poker and poker players

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This makes no sense. We know that less than 1 out of 10 players is a longterm winner after rake. And yet you say "everyone can be a winner". How can that be possible? Are 9/10 players just bloody idiots who could be winners if only they read a book?

Non-debatable???
not everyone can be a winner at the same time, that's a truism; but it's equally true to say that the game required for beating low levels is pretty straightforward and doesn't require much brainpower. OTOH, it also requires the self discipline to rinse and repeat a simple game plan hot and cold rather than vary your game when you're up 2 buyins/get sucked out on/are drunk/whatever. Ego/impatience/tilt prevents people from winning, or hurts their winrate a lot, imv, and the role of discipline to stick to your A game or walk away is as important as any other poker skill.

OP is a troll, the post is a mix of a couple of facile truths with some points showing a total misunderstanding of poker, washed down with a pretty ugly dose of intellectual arrogance. I guess he cant be banned, but he is a AAA grade candidate for the ignore list.
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Old 06-22-2008, 09:00 AM   #221
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Re: A critique of poker and poker players

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OP is a troll, the post is a mix of a couple of facile truths with some points showing a total misunderstanding of poker, washed down with a pretty ugly dose of intellectual arrogance.
I concur.

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Originally Posted by kokiri View Post
I guess he cant be banned, but he is a AAA grade candidate for the ignore list.
Anyone asking the mods to ban someone else is an AAA grade candidate for my ignore list. You don't like his opinion? Well just don't listen/read.
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Old 06-22-2008, 11:34 AM   #222
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Re: A critique of poker and poker players

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OP, I hope this a giant level, if so well done.

if not, you are sadly mistaken. Varience has a meaning, it simply refers to the luck factor which is pretty significant.
yea lets all say im a troll and levelling so we can all forget about this as quickly as possible. For what is is worth, I am not a troll.

Thanks for telling me that the term "variance" exists. I clearly stated why its a sham.
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Old 06-22-2008, 11:40 AM   #223
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Re: A critique of poker and poker players

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Originally Posted by kokiri View Post
OP is a troll, the post is a mix of a couple of facile truths with some points showing a total misunderstanding of poker, washed down with a pretty ugly dose of intellectual arrogance. I guess he cant be banned, but he is a AAA grade candidate for the ignore list.
so many people are coming forward as experts making claims that I show a "total lmisunderstanding of poker", interestingly that's pretty much all they have to say on the matter. Ignore me all you want Kokiri, but don't claim tomake me out to be someething i'm not or use me as a scapegoat so you don't have a reason to face some of the things I have said full on. I have clearly touched a nerve here, perhaps because I am clueless, or because I have found some flawed reasoning in the poker mindset.
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Old 06-22-2008, 11:48 AM   #224
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Re: A critique of poker and poker players

OP is the trolliest troll that ever trolled!
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Old 06-22-2008, 12:07 PM   #225
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Re: A critique of poker and poker players

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For what is is worth, I am not a troll.
Too bad, this could have been a good thread. But it is no use discussing with someone who reinvents terms to his liking.

There are three groups of people who say outrageous things -

one, those who want people to think about it => clearly no troll

two, those who he want to get flamed => troll

three, those who don't have a friggin' clue. => stupid troll

If you really think that you qualify for the first group with the way you have acted so far, you are sadly mistaken.

BTW most people here are angry with you, OP, because your rain on their parade. I am angry with you because the way you present it, even more people will believe that everyone can be a winner. Well done.
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