Here's what happened:
10-25 PLO5 card game, 8 handed, very deep (average stack 5K, 2 stacks above 20K)

3 way all-in situation, Board is Q-J-10 (with 2 hearts, 1 spade)
everybody has AK (obv.), 1 guy has backdoor spades redraw, the other guy K-high hearts and 2 pair, my beautiful hand:
AKQQ3 with nut hearts, so top set and nut flush redraw.

The game is running for a while, good atmosphere, everybody is chatting in English (important). We agree on running twice (big pot, i wanna maximize my chance of hitting my redraw at least once), agreement was made before showdown (at Kings you have to show when allin before turn or river is dealt).

Now Dealer deals out, first board comes blank blank, second board with 1 heart, so i win 75% of everything.
As soon as the heart on the second board hits, 3rd player claims:
"wait, what are you doing, i never agreed to twice". .... classic ... ;-))

now a long discussion starts, with in total 3 floor guys coming over and doing different kind of rulings, they look at the tape (camera), to try to confirm if the guy agreed to twice or not, even though the dealer clearly confirmed that he did, the 3rd guy was clearly the target/fish at the table, one other weaker player, the rest were regs, so another guy "suggested" he might have been a big casino player, which is why the floor wanted to protect him ... at one point he switched to Czech language (someone explained/translated for me) and claimed, that his english was very bad and he didnt understand what they meant with "twice", so thats why he didnt agree) .... anyway, after long discussion the last floor then ruled, that the other reg had to pay me (twice confirmed), but the 3rd guy didnt have to pay, bc he didnt agree.

Ever seen anything like this before?
Thoughts?

Cheers

sorry you got scammed.

Wouldnt be unreasonable for casino to have buttons similair to the all in ones that says how many times people will run and dealer explaining breakdown of rules, these things seem to happen way too often

This isn't the first thread where a foreigner gets bamboozled in a PLO game at kings casino.

xD

its 66.5%

That's the ruling that was made. The floor has authority in a situation like this one. You may not agree with their decision but rules are rules. I am a retired senior floor manager (some consulting work still here and there) but in this case, I likely would have deferred to an English language test, with instructions to the test given in his native tongue. Adaptability is a big part of the job.

It wouldn't be a problem if casinos just didn't allow this timewasting procedure that serves the sole purposes of allowing people who can't handle variance to play higher than they otherwise should either

This.

Ive seen type of thing happen at least 10 times. The end result has ways been someone gets scammed by a POS ,a huge argument ensues and the entire table wastes 15-30 mins waiting for it to be sorted out.

There are many reasons I stopped running it twice and this is one of them.

Way too much time is wasted way too often and that's when someone doesn't even get scammed.


Also you should get 2/3rds not 3/4ths.

Thx for all the comments:
1. yep, button for twice is great, seen it elsewhere, unfortunately they had none
2. 2/3 is correct of course, my mistake

But, nobody adressed my main point, which is the ruling that 1 guy pays and the other guy not, in the same hand, basically saying that there was no decision made if the hand was once or twice for all players equal.

besides for the obvious feeling of being scammed, that was actually the most insane part about it imo

couldn't disagree more:
1. it's a service industry, if customers want it, you give it to them
2. why would i ever discourage a smaller stakes player to take a shot at a bigger game?

exactly, rules are rules.
the floor was called over, asked the dealer what happened, the dealer confirmed (!!!) that all agreed to twice ... isn't the dealer the boss at the table? rules etc.?

yep, heard about other stories as well, but mostly my experience there is very good, and the games/action is amazing very often ... so ...

Problem isn’t people taking “shots”. Those people expect/are able to lose that money without it effecting them. It’s people who can’t afford the game playing consistently expecting to run it twice that overextend themselves cause they don’t realize the risk involved in a stake. It creates a false sense of security. It really doesn’t decrease variance as much as people think. Most of variance is caused by card distribution. Like I can’t be the only one who’s experienced this… I have had my worst swings by far in games that allow people to run it multiple times while I always did business and I used to make less cause games didn’t play as deep because of it.

Your 1st point is very valid and why I do think it’s prevalent. You should be accommodating in a service industry and often players forget that they survive off enabling enjoyable environments.

1) The only thing I want is a fast game. My opinions don't matter?
2) If whenever such a player gets into a non trivial pot they start wanting it running five times, with insurance, then are they really taking a shot at all or just massaging their own ego?

Sorry this happened to you, OP

Regarding the other discussion.. it’s not really about encouraging ppl to play higher, I think it’s a pretty small part of the decision (or benefit) to offering it.

Even if you can comfortably afford the stakes you generally prefer less variance not more.. there are some nuances, and obv especially if there’s a risk of being scammed/angled run it once can quickly become a better option

Whether it’s good or bad for the cardroom bottom line is a different story and likely depends on the player pool, esp the recs (will they reload if they bust -> if not game breaks -> run more is better prob), rake cap (playing deep is generally better for the room if there’s a high rake cap) etc

I've seen a lot of players accept/reject running it multiple times with zero idea of what was being asked. I've had to ask and explain for like 2 minutes before and I've seen lots of dealers entirely confused.

In part you don't to avoid debacles like this. I've seen way too much nonsense with running it twice.

Way more mistakes happen in pots run 2/3 times especially when it's multiway.

Additionally you have a bunch of other customers who have to sit there twiddling their thumbs waiting way too long for pots to be chopped bc some cowards can't handle variance.

"All in"... No no just joking!

Don't even get me started on the people who want to run it twice ,then want to argue (while being completely wrong) with a dealer who knows the short cut when someone gets quartered.
"No no bring everything in"...

I stopped running it twice 7-8 years ago and my swings are way bigger now. It absolutely decreases variance to RIT especially in plo.

It's a flagrantly wrong, perhaps even openly corrupt ruling.

The game is way too big for floor not to have very clear rules on run-it-twice, for the floor to make this ruling over player and dealer protests is not credible or reasonable.

Maybe I was an anomaly. It seemed all my 2000bb+ pots the person wanted to run it once anyways during that time so maybe that's what contributed to it. Was kinda frustrating to run it twice for <100bb and then someone want to run it once in huge pot too but people think you're an ******* if you say I don't want to run it twice in small pots. I really think it wouldn't make as much difference as people think though a lot of times a lot of money goes in on streets before an all in anyways especially when you play deep. When you factor in a % of the population only runs it once anyways it can't be that drastically decreasing variance.

In PLO you win most of your money because other players are getting it in bad against you before the river. The problem is holding against their 30-40% equity. If allowed, the rational play if you are taking a shot with a small and vulnerable bank roll would be to equity chop every time you are all in. Of course people dont do that because then you arent really playing poker any more. So running it several times is the closest they get to that "real equity" being paid out at the end of the hand.

These kind of low rolled shot takers are often pretty decent and nitty players in my opinion. I normally like to run it twice because I hate losing more than I like winning but whenever I see a player like this at a table I refuse to run it twice with them to increase variance and increase the chance of hurting their bankroll so they have to leave the game.

Running it twice objectively decreases variance. Its not even a question.

Also Ive never seen someone get pissed about the argument "I dont run it twice in small pots". Completely reasonable imo. Sometimes people want to double up or rebuy if they feel their stack is relatively small compared to the game.

Running it twice is highly -EV in Europe other than Nordic countries and GB. Lots of angleshooters out there who suddenly don't speak English. I have paid to learn this as well.

I mean yea if all your huge pots were ran once then running it twice for pots 5 percent of the size isnt reducing much.

If you wanna run small pots once and big pots twice then do it. Nothing wrong with that.

Even just say I only run it twice over x dollars.

I've seen people flip flop based on their hands and have that piss people off. Never really seen someone pissed off bc someone wants to run a small pot try except for a nitty cry baby reg and who cares if they're pissed off their opinion doesn't matter.