Could isildur1 get his money back because of Hastings + co 'cheating' - Page 88 - Poker News

For the people who wonder why everyone is talking about this for thousands of replies...

I'm pretty sure the frustration from everyone comes from feeling like they were cheated out of seeing a "real" record-breaking winning day and seeing someone bust Isildur1 in true heads-up fashion.

The responses remind me of the fan rage that comes out when there's discovery of doping on the part of Olympic athletes. People really don't like the competition tainted...and I mean really don't like it. I think people also feel like this sort-of "teaming up," while not really that earth-shaking of a reveal...is cowardly...like Hastings and company didn't really have the heart or skill to take on Isildur by themselves, and now, not only is Isildur possibly gone without the satisfaction or closure of seeing someone beat him mano a mano, but the money will probably be gone from the high stakes tables also.

Yes, everything you said plays a role in this scandal but there are other things as well.
Like.. scandal comming from proffesionals who are suposed to promote poker not present it like some shady borderline illegal activity.
Things like this cant be good for online poker...at all.

12-21-2009 , 08:12 PM

#2177

ToTheFelt

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 616

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevmath

Mediocre Poker Radio interview with Hastings

For those interested, this was done about 10 days ago (Isildur talk starts after the 2 minute mark, discussing talks of collusion, etc). Further discussion about studying hands starts at 27:40.

At 11:40ish in the interview he states quite clearly that Taylor "is horrible at reading PLO boards" and quite often said that Taylor asks him "what do you think I should do here should I call?" and Hastings says "what are you doing? Get it in!"... sounds like they are both playing one opponent together, or they are ghosting.

12-21-2009 , 08:24 PM

#2178

Feeder

journeyman

Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 266

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flip-Flop

Ivey and PA both played Isildur and got couple of millions out of him.
Do you see anyone complaining about that?
Nobody does because they did it fair and square, they didnt wait for hours (weeks in CR's trio case) like volchers until he is tired or on tilt to play him one after another.

Add the datamining, HH/reports/Range lists/strategy sharing and voila, you have a scandal.
That's great for poker.

Cole South has been active in this thread quoting his HS friends who supposedly dont see anything wrong with what this trio did.
Cool.
BUT, how come we dont see Isildur himself in this thread saying " Hey guys, it's cool, I lost fair and square, no need to trip over this."
What we DO hear is that Isi is actually processing formal complaint to FTP about what happened.

You must have posted about 300 times in this thread and have yet to add anything of any substance.

Your latest spewage of bashing them for wanting to play Isildur when he is tilted or tired is so ******ed its untrue.

12-21-2009 , 08:44 PM

#2179

blocka

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 2,471

Quote:

Originally Posted by cts

Once again I will say that without a doubt there is no conglomerated hand database. I and only I have my bulk personal hand histories, I have not sent these to anyone. Additionally, I have not received their hand histories and so there is no person in possession of all of our private hand histories.

Maybe if you are so squeaky clean you could ask BT do you a favour and to clear up where the "acquired" 30k hands were sourced from. Surely he would do this for to stop your name being dragged through the mud, afterall he has vowed to be a upstanding respectable member of the poker community.

12-21-2009 , 08:47 PM

#2180

Flip-Flop

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,169

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feeder

How about you get a brain and start forming your own opinion instead of blindly coming in cheater's defence?
Did you listen to the radio interview?
Hastings confirmed what their plan was, getting Isi tired and tilted was the plan A.

12-21-2009 , 08:48 PM

#2181

limon

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 6,347

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToTheFelt

ouch

12-21-2009 , 08:53 PM

#2182

effuluck

banned

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 2,145

Quote:

Originally Posted by limon

ouch

Not surprising...Hastings has a larger then average mouth.

12-21-2009 , 08:59 PM

#2183

Flip-Flop

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,169

Quote:

Originally Posted by effuluck

Not surprising...Hastings has a larger then average mouth.

Yep, seems very easy to make him spill the beans heh.
After all, he IS the whistleblower of his own scandal here.
Too funny.

12-21-2009 , 09:02 PM

#2184

jcl

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 3,343

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flip-Flop

Ivey and PA both played Isildur and got couple of millions out of him.
Do you see anyone complaining about that?
no, because you're their fanboys and they dont work for CR
Nobody does because they did it fair and square, they didnt wait for hours (weeks in CR's trio case)um, i didnt see ivey race to play isildur, looks like he bided his time to see how he played imo like volchers redeemable at which stores?until he is tired or on tilt to play him one after another.yes, because playing tilted or tired opponents is against T+C and we should all quit our opponents if we think they aren't in peak poker condition

Add the datamining, HH/reports/Range lists/strategy sharing and voila, you have a scandal.
i like your use of asyndeton and synonyms to create effect, you must be a language scholar of some sort. i approve. but if you really think all these things which are really just 'talking poker' to friends is the most grievous thing in the world, you are a delusional man
That's great for poker.

Cole South has been active in this thread quoting his HS friends who supposedly dont see anything wrong with what this trio did.
Cool.
BUT, how come we dont see Isildur himself in this thread saying " Hey guys, it's cool, I lost fair and square, no need to trip over this." um because he probably doesn't use 2+2? r u for real lol
What we DO hear is that Isi is actually processing formal complaint to FTP about what happened.

12-21-2009 , 09:02 PM

#2185

effuluck

banned

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 2,145

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flip-Flop

Yep, seems very easy to make him spill the beans heh.
After all, he IS the whistleblower of his own scandal here.
Too funny.

12-21-2009 , 09:21 PM

#2186

mrwalken

adept

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 843

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd Terry

Did Brian Hastings, Brian Townsend and Cole South Conglomerate Their Hand Histories versus isildur1 into a single database?

Full Tilt, after the most cursory investigation in history, determined that they had not. This is contrary to what Gary Wise wrote in the ESPN article:

Hastings had played Isildur1 three times previously, so he, Townsend and Cole South conglomerated their hand histories, allowing them to study the mystery man's playing style.

As I mentioned previously, that article, with the sentence above, remains up on the ESPN website. Nothing has been retracted.

Cole, in this thread, repeatedly and vehemently denied that they had done so. What follows is the case to be made that they did in fact do what Gary Wise reported they did in his article -- consolidate their hand histories into a single database.

After his big win, on 12/10 Brian Hastings gave an interview with Phil Gordon and Andrew Feldman of ESPN for "The Poker Edge", a podcast. The podcast is available on this page (which also includes Gary's article):

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/poker...ary&id=4740913

I listened to the podcast for the first time today. Remember, at the time of the podcast, there was no controversy about rule-breaking, so Hastings had no incentive to lie about details of what occurred. During that podcast, in giving credit to Townsend for his victory, Hastings said:

I know that he [Townsend] analyzed a database of like, 50,000 headsup hands that isildur played ...

[emphasis added] (Podcast, around 10:05).

In his statement about this controversy in his blog, Townsend wrote:

I had about 20k hands of play on Isildur and I acquired another 30k hands.

Townsend has given zero details about how and where he "acquired" the other 30k hands. (Note that Hastings' reference during the podcast to "50,000 hands" in Townsend's database put Townsend in a bad spot, since the number of hands Townsend had played against isildur1 (at least on his own account, lol) was only 20,000).

In this thread in response to one of my questions Cole South wrote:

We've all played a large amount of hands against Isildur (about 25,000 myself heads up vs him) and have significant personal databases against him.

So Cole played about 25k headsup hands vs. isildur1.

Wouldn't it be amazing if 30k hands corresponded to the number of hands Cole South and Brian Hastings collectively had played against isildur1? So I went to pokertableratings and found that, prior to the match in question, Brian Hastings had played ... 5778 hands vs. isildur1. Bingo. So Cole South and Brian Hastings had played around 30k hands vs. isildur1 prior to the match, the same number of hands that Brian Townsend said he "acquired".

To believe that these guys did not conglomerate their hand histories into a single database, you have to believe that they are the victims of two amazing occurrences/coincidences:

1. Gary Wise, after interviewing Hastings and Townsend, somehow wrote a very specific sentence that they "conglomerated their hand histories", which wasn't true.

2. Of all the numbers of hands that Brian Townsend could have "acquired", he happened to acquire the number of hands that corresponded to the number of hands his two friends, Hastings and South, had played against isildur1.

There are other more minor points like why is that sentence still up on ESPN? And, as someone mentioned above, why would Townsend acquire datamined hands (which he knew to be against the rules) but not get hands from his friends (which no one knew to be against the rules)?

Incidentally, the analysis I did, had the numbers been different, could have proved these guys completely innocent of conglomerating their databases. If Townsend, South and Hastings had combined played say, 60,000 hands vs. isildur, then a 50,000 hand database obviously could not be the result of the three of them conglomerating their hand histories.

wow the plot thickens...

12-21-2009 , 09:23 PM

#2187

daveT

S.A.G.E. Master

Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 23,955

Quote:

Originally Posted by blocka

And maybe these guys can explain how cts, a huge loser a HS play, was able to help take down someone of Isi's caliber without help? Why not start winning against all the people Isildur beat?

12-21-2009 , 09:28 PM

#2188

cts

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 7,736

I'm not sure why you feel the need to bring inaccurate datamining numbers into play or what they have to do with anything. PTR has me down, HSDB has me up 2.5mill in 2009 (http://www.highstakesdb.com/profiles...e%20South.aspx), no one knows my finances but me.

12-21-2009 , 09:35 PM

#2189

jcl

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 3,343

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveT

And maybe these guys can explain how cts, a huge loser a HS play, was able to help take down someone of Isi's caliber without help? Why not start winning against all the people Isildur beat?

r u serious? one it was hastings who played. two, if u think cts is a huge loser at high stakes...well lol. three isildur's plo game seems decidly questionable compared to his HUNL. u think because he's good at NL he's unbeatable in any form of poker without some team working together to beat him? and four omg dkajsfnfdaadjndfasdfs do u play any poker at all? those people might not give action or they might actually have an edge and cts might not want to play them; just because they A beats B beats C doesnt mean A beats C.

i love ur ahk programs daveT, but that statement is ******ed on so many levels

12-21-2009 , 09:37 PM

#2190

Sjors

banned

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 623

Hey Cole, has B. Hastings asked Gary Wise to rectify the part of the interview where he talks about "conglomerated hand histories" yet? or is this a non-issue?

12-21-2009 , 09:45 PM

#2191

JabrielP

old hand

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 1,603

Great work Todd, your findings support the majority of our suspicions; there is overwhelming circumstantial evidence that the 50k HH's used for joint discussion and preparation by the CR 3 in the build up to the isildur1 series of matches was a conglomerated database of BT, BH and CTS personal HH's, in direct contrast to the stories presented by the accused and FTP's T&C.

I hope your work, the concerns expressed in this thread, and common sense will result in Full Tilt taking a closer look at this case.

--------------------------

I think everyone knows what really happened here, the thought that Townsend would choose to acquire partial HH's from miscellaneous/undivulged sources, and not full HH's from (or in addition to) his closest friends/backers/teammates, ignoring their unrepentant stance on the morals of datamining, is just so ridiculous and hard to believe even they must realise the story they are sticking to is completely untenable. The guy is a known cheat, has already been found guilty of datamining in an extremely shoddy and rushed investigation, and all three had the means and overwhelmingly convincing motive to commit the additional crimes. The thought he worked alone, in isolation of the other 2, is absurd.

It just beggars belief that they could believed the community would be so stupid.

--------------------------

Edit: My own personal views/suspicions on this are quite clear, but I acknowledge that only once a full and thorough investigation had taken place, could we assign guilt. I feel there is enough doubt, circumstantial evidence and just plain common sense that a further investigation MUST take place.

Last edited by JabrielP; 12-21-2009 at 09:59 PM.

12-21-2009 , 09:47 PM

#2192

blocka

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 2,471

Quote:

Originally Posted by cts

Probably because it is bleedingly obvious the BT statement was carefully worded and avoided saying where he sourced the extra 30k hands from.

It would then be logical to to assume that is being covered up for some reason? One possible reason could be to protect BH and yourself.

12-21-2009 , 09:49 PM

#2193

Jehaim

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 5,055

Isildur1's Cashflow Diagram

http://www.pokertableratings.com/ful...nents/isildur1

12-21-2009 , 09:51 PM

#2194

cts

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 7,736

Quote:

Originally Posted by JabrielP

Great work Todd, your findings confirm the majority of our suspicions; there is overwhelming circumstantial evidence that the 50k HH's used for joint discussion and preparation by the CR 3 in the build up to the isildur1 series of matches was a conglomerated database of BT, BH and CTS personal HH's, in direct contrast to the stories presented by the accused and FTP's T&C.

I hope your work, the concerns expressed in this thread, and common sense will result in Full Tilt taking a closer look at this case.

--------------------------

I think everyone knows what really happened here, the thought that Townsend would choose to acquire partial HH's from miscellaneous/undivulged sources, and not full HH's from (or in addition to) his closest friends/backers/teammates, ignoring their unrepentant stance on the morals of datamining, is just so ridiculous and hard to believe even they must realise the story they are sticking to is completely untenable. The guys is a known cheat, was found guilty to datamining in an extremely shoddy and rushed investigation, and all three had the means and overwhelmingly convincing motive to commit the additional crimes.

It just beggars belief that they could believed the community would be so stupid.

I don't know anything about polygraphs, but someone did bring them up earlier in this thread so I made a 5:1 offer on $5k. Even if they are ineffective as someone brought up, if you think I am lying then at 5:1 this has to be a massively +EV bet for you. I am willing to even set the thing up, no work whatsoever for the bettor, with a reputable company and assert

*At no point did I sent my bulk (ie more than 1% of hands played, as stated we discussed specific hands within the realms of FTP's T&C) personal hand histories from this match to anyone.
*At no point did I receive bulk (ie more than 1% of hands played) personal hand histories from this match from anyone.
*At no point was I asked for my personal hand histories by Brian Townsend or Brian Hastings.
*At no point did I break the one player to a hand rule.

12-21-2009 , 09:55 PM

#2195

killmyselfwhynot

banned

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 201

Quote:

Originally Posted by cts

I don't know anything about polygraphs, but someone did bring them up earlier in this thread so I made a 5:1 offer on $5k. Even if they are ineffective as someone brought up, if you think I am lying then at 5:1 this has to be a massively +EV bet for you. I am willing to even set the thing up with a reputable company and assert

*At no point did I sent my bulk (ie more than 1% of hands played, as stated we discussed specific hands within the realms of FTP's T&C) personal hand histories from this match to anyone.
*At no point did I receive bulk (ie more than 1% of hands played) personal hand histories from this match from anyone.
*At no point was I asked for my personal hand histories by Brian Townsend or Brian Hastings.
*At no point did I break the one player to a hand rule.

Im more curious about how much you benchpress and what your favourite city is. I would highly appreciate an answer (no level)

12-21-2009 , 09:55 PM

#2196

cts

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 7,736

Quote:

Originally Posted by blocka

I agree that his wording was vague. I'm not sure why (as the source of the hands is not dramatic at all, and is not Hastings or I -- as Brian said, the hands are datamined public hands that do not contain hole cards). Because of the vagueness, I imagine that there is a reason that the precise source was not released but I am looking into it.

12-21-2009 , 09:55 PM

#2197

blocka

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 2,471

Quote:

Originally Posted by cts

I don't know anything about polygraphs, but someone did bring them up earlier in this thread so I made a 5:1 offer on $5k. Even if they are ineffective as someone brought up, if you think I am lying then at 5:1 this has to be a massively +EV bet for you. I am willing to even set the thing up with a reputable company and assert

*At no point did I sent my bulk (ie more than 1% of hands played, as stated we discussed specific hands within the realms of FTP's T&C) personal hand histories from this match to anyone.
*At no point did I receive bulk (ie more than 1% of hands played) personal hand histories from this match from anyone.
*At no point was I asked for my personal hand histories by Brian Townsend or Brian Hastings.
*At no point did I break the one player to a hand rule.

From any match?

12-21-2009 , 09:57 PM

#2198

cts

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 7,736

Absolutely.

12-21-2009 , 09:59 PM

#2199

Steelerman

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,287

This type of stuff is disappointing to fans of online poker. Just adds fuel to the fire for the people who claim online poker is shady and corrupt. Especially when you have a guy like Townsend who has been proven a cheater in the past (not an opinion...a proven fact). Now here he is again suspended by Full Tilt. How he remains a Red Pro (after his suspension) and how Cardrunners keeps a proven 2-time rule breaker on their staff is really just kind of a joke.

I railed those games with no real rooting interest...was just in awe at the huuuuuge pots being played. It was fun imagining how crazy it would be to play that high. Since all this garbage has come out it completely takes the luster away. A two time cheater getting his buddies in on the action is bad for poker. Shame on them.