Yea I agree Stu was probably the best!!

probably not a popular opinion, but there has to be atleast 100 players that are 10x better at tournaments than stu ungar.
i get it, he figured out that being aggressive wins you tournaments. must be nice to play against people that 8x pot shove flops with the nuts and fold every other hand thats not nutted to a 1/4th pot bet

I think the fact that he was sought after as the fish - in cash games, suggests that he was not a sophisticated poker thinker/player... he was around at the right time

Though his gin rummy game was meant to be very skilled. If true, he was banned from gin tournies as he was too strong/won too often

How good is Ivey's career without FTP monthly checks coming in. Seriously, I don't know anything about his post FTP life.

1. Chip

2. Doyle

3. Ivey

4. Stu

5. Seidel

6. Baxter

7. dNegs

8. Hellmuth LOL

9. Tobey

10. Sklansky

Stu had a large edge at tournaments as the fields were weak by today's standards and his tournament play has ahead of his time. Also he was good at one on one poker.

However, Stu was an overall flat losing player in Vegas ring games.. all the game types. He was a good spot to have in a ring game.

As Chip once noted: When Stuey is at his best there is no one better but he has no patience and when he is at his worst there is almost no one worse. He just isn't at his best enough.

Stuey's drug spiral did not help things and being broke most of the time probably did not help his play. Stuey was a degenerate gambler: horses, sports, golf, etc.

A number of top gin players have told me Stuey was the best there was at that game.

"is it a consensus that _________ are the most talented __________ of all time?"

No.

How do you even declare someone to be a 'top' gin player considering how little incentive there is for anyone to play? Do people even play gin competitively? The world series of gin in 2018 has a total prize pool of 75k, and it seems like there're maybe 2 tournaments a year where there're less than 100 old men who register for all the events combined. Just by being in 20s he would've had a huge edge in having a better memory than the field of players who seem to be on average around 60-70.

http://ginrummytournaments.com/wp-co...chure_2018.pdf

When people speak so flatteringly of his brilliant mind for gin or tournament poker it sounds a lot like when people gush about how great a body their friends dog-faced girlfriend has.

He makes sick bluffs in crazy spots where no one else would think of bluffing omg what a siiiiiiiiick genius! The downside? His loses his patience easily and gives away his stack in really dumb spots wahhh

^^ Gin was a much bigger game back then, as were bridge, 7stud, draw etc

Anyhow I think these guys deserve extra credit. Today getting good is a lot more str8forward, you have videos, coaching, PT/HEM, even mental game coaching... if you have talent and the right mindset, you will acquire the skills. But back then these ppl had to invent the skills

Maybe (likely) there are ppl playing today who could've risen thru the ranks back then with the knowledge that was available about the game back then, but who they might be, we have no way of knowing.

thats not normal memory for a 20 year old. if Stuey could memorize every card picked up and put down by an opponent it would make him a better player than anyone who couldnt.

i will bet anyone on here they cant count down a six deck shoe and know the last card. thats how special stuey was.

Gin isn't played as much now and was never much of a tournament game, but there are tons of stories of high-stakes gin games in lots of older gambling books, plus the movie The Flamingo Kid.

You just described Vanessa Selbst

I don't think that you can make a top 10 list and leave Mike Sexton off. He has been playing for something like 40 years and he's still killing it.

I don't know what the time lag is between playing and showing WPT episodes on TV, but the last I heard Sexton was in the running for player of the year.

Are people still making these stupid threads?

Argh

No... no... no.

First off this is the legend - not what actually happened.

It's the way most bar bets/scammers work

What do I mean by that? – Good question. This is nothing to do with method [of achieving the feat] but all to do with the wording on the ‘legend’ –

“In 1977, Ungar was bet $100,000 by Bob Stupak”

Yes that may well be true. But the skill all hustlers have [or need to have to make more money] is make it seem like the victim had control. So Ungar was bet 100k by Bob Stupak. But the truth is that Ungar came up with the bet… and made it seem like it was Bob’s idea – or the restrictions put on the challenge were Bob’s.

The classic is the scammer letting a punter find a die on the floor of a bar… etc.

So in the retelling it always seems like Stupak came up with this bet.

That is not the case. But either way it doesn’t really delve into the method.

The important thing to note is this ‘effect’ isn’t that much more difficult whether you use 1 deck, or two… or even six… or more. It does take a little more work – as you have to go through an extra 52 cards per deck.

A magician might do this with a marked deck.

But the other method doesn’t take much work.

I found your choice of wording [Rich Chekmaker] interesting, you said this:

“i will bet anyone on here they cant count down a six deck shoe and know the last card. thats how special stuey was.”

First up not only could I do this… so please don’t bet me 100k, I could also teach anyone else how to do it – in an afternoon. Whether they could do this under pressure is another question… but it’s the same question you would have to ask of someone wanting to play Blackjack with an advantage.

The most interesting part of your wording was actually this:

“cant count down a six deck shoe”

I left the typo in.

As on the one hand you bet no one can do this relatively ‘easy’ feat. On the other hand you directly nod to the method.

As noted above by easy – I mean most people [if not all] have the ability to do this.

Or to put it another way – you are not remembering each card that you see and crossing it off the imaginary 6 full decks you have in your mind.

Says the guy who’s been here for ten months.

Phil Ivey is still king. His place in poker is in the same tier as Bobby Fischer to chess.

So, not the best then?

Both are unique (american) underdog stories featuring transcendental supernatural talent. Your other gods had success handed to them.

ill bet you $500 you cant do it. im betting you CANT do it thats not a typo. you have poor english language skills, is english your first language?

you mention a method but then never bother to elaborate on said method. you seriously think you can watch 6 decks turned over one card at a time and know what the remaining card is?? HAVE YOU EVER DONE IT BEFORE?? if not, then sit down and shut up. if so, post a video on youtube explaining your method which you said would allow anyone to be able to accomplish this feat.

I guess you are a troll

Can’t and cant – might seem like the same word, they are said the same way – but they have different meanings.

I really do not think you meant ‘cant’ – though you may call me a ‘cant’ [sic] for pointing this out

As to this amazing challenge… err – yes of course I can do it. It’s not something I currently have in my repertoire. The reason you think it’s so hard to do, is you are seeing it as only being able to be done one way.

For instance – if you went through 6 decks – and left two cards at the end… he won’t get it correct… unless the ‘performer’ got very lucky… he would just have to guess two cards that might be correct… but you get down to one last card… that one final card… and it’s perfect knowledge – you know exactly which card is left.

You do NOT remember the cards as they come

You just have a stack

A simple stack [and not the one I use] would be to rank all the suits. Up to you how. Maybe in bridge order so Spades are the most powerful… or CHaSeD order – which is the classic way to do it.

Let’s suggest Spades, Hearts, Clubs, Diamonds [Spade has one point, Hearts have two bumps, Clubs 3 bobbles, Diamonds 4 points]

I suggest this as then you have a very easy stack… my stack is memorized and not in an obvious order

Spades Ace is number 1, to King number 13
Hearts Ace is 14, to King number 26
Etc

I think you have worked this out now [?] maybe

So you just need to count (or rather take away) the number for each card that comes… you see the King of Diamonds… that’s -52 off your starting number [which will depend on how many decks]

After the last but one card has been dealt…. You take that cards rank off the total… you have, let’s say 7 left [of your starting count]

You act a bit… you hum and err [for effect]

Then you say 7 of spades

If you are serious about the $500 – I’m happy to come do this for you – I truly do much more difficult things than this particular effect.

Well, that it still would require him to have above average math skills which would make him pretty exceptional in the poker world back in the 80s and 90s.

A true legend i tells yuh.

Nothing harder than counting in BJ

In fact easier as you are only worrying about one card [number] and subtracting it from the current total

Believe me - if I can do it - than the vast majority of the population can do it

And the 80's/90's mean nothing - poker world or not - I would hazzard that 'memory acts' were more vivid in those days - and so more people would look at picking up simple 'tricks' / 'effects' like this

Just because you think the game has got a lot harder - that does not mean people were stupid 'back in the day'

All Harry Lorayne's works [on memory] came out in the late 50's to 90's - and he was on the TV loads doing various memory tricks

And all memory feats are so much simpler than people think - yes some push the envelope - but this paticular one does not

If you are using this to show he was a genius - that's only because you didn't understand how simple it was to do. And in that sense it's like a magic trick... you see the girl levitate - and if you know the technic you think it's easy and anyone can do it... if you don't AND you think it was real - then you can't believe how amazing the magician is - what a genius he is, to be able to make that girl fly into the air just with his thoughts

Hi Tuco:

I think you have this exactly right. The way It was explained to me was that Unger was a favorite to lose whenever he sat in a cash game. Just the opposite of Chip who always played his best.

Many years ago I once had a conversation with a man named Norman Lepore who many people felt was the equal of Stu at gin rummy. Norman told me that he had beaten Unger more than he lost to him, but that when Stu was right no one could beat him.

Best wishes,
Mason

You're right, people weren't stupid back in the day. But the ones who chose to dedicate themselves to gambling for profit weren't an impressive bunch.

He's "one of the best" because he was around in a time where there were maybe a dozen professional poker players in the world, all who were grizzled hustlers more interested in making easy money than becoming the worlds best bluffer.

But maaaaan, when he was on his game, he could make some siiiiick bluffs. Until he wasn't on his game, and then he'd barrel off with a bluff catcher into a calling station.