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Old 01-08-2015, 07:37 PM   #26
TheDarkElf
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Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

I heard if the bot takes a bad beat, it curses at the dealer.
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Old 01-08-2015, 07:39 PM   #27
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Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

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i assume game = hand?
correct
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Old 01-08-2015, 07:52 PM   #28
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Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

Wait, does this graph mean that the computer will NEVER cap it preflop on the btn?? Any time it gets 3b pre it just calls?

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Old 01-08-2015, 08:03 PM   #29
TChan
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Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

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I'm kind of happy to see a resounding "Meh." We hoped everyone with a bit of knowledge would be aware that we hadn't somehow ruined the game of poker by finding an (almost) game theoretically optimal strategy, but I wasn't sure exactly how much credit to give people... It's oddly reassuring to see a bunch of people say "who cares?"
I think the more obvious question to me is, are you guys too good for money? Even starting from a modest bankroll, if you believe this much in your solution you should be now smashing the biggest limits. I'm always skeptical of people who claim solutions but are not willing to pony up against the best in the world. Shouldn't you be siphoning all the money out of the last few remaining HULHE specialists?
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Old 01-08-2015, 08:07 PM   #30
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Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

Wow, am I correct that we can plug in any possible combination of action at a hulhe hand and it will return a perfect/gto solution? This is incredible.

Website down, looking forward to checking this thing out.
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Old 01-08-2015, 08:08 PM   #31
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Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

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Wait, does this graph mean that the computer will NEVER cap it preflop on the btn?? Any time it gets 3b pre it just calls?

Yes. At least if your opponent is perfect, it seems like it's a mistake to add that last raise. No guarantees if your opponent is not perfect, or you end up making mistakes later on in the game...

It caps .06% of the time with 9T suited - most likely part of the noise that makes it "essentially" solved and not just solved.
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Old 01-08-2015, 08:10 PM   #32
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Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

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I think the more obvious question to me is, are you guys too good for money? Even starting from a modest bankroll, if you believe this much in your solution you should be now smashing the biggest limits. I'm always skeptical of people who claim solutions but are not willing to pony up against the best in the world. Shouldn't you be siphoning all the money out of the last few remaining HULHE specialists?
It seems like you are making one or more of the following assumptions, none of which are likely to be true:

1) It is easy for a human to simply observe the bot and closely replicate its play.

2) They are willing to break site rules and let their bot play on an online poker site, discrediting their academic department.

3) Opponents will continue playing them for a considerable amount of time after observing that they play well.
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Old 01-08-2015, 08:11 PM   #33
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Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

So, how long before the darkside nerd hacks steal this program, incorporate it into their own bot, then rape online poker?

RIP online poker IMHO
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Old 01-08-2015, 08:13 PM   #34
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Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

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Originally Posted by Frankie Fuzz View Post
It seems like you are assuming one of 2 things, neither of which are likely to be true:

1) It is easy for a human to simply observe the bot and closely replicate its play.

2) They are willing to break site rules and let their bot play on the site, which would discredit their academic department as well.
3) anyone would play against them

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So, how long before the darkside nerd hacks steal this program, incorporate it into their own bot, then rape online poker?

RIP online poker IMHO
yeah because there is just so much action for hulhe...
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Old 01-08-2015, 08:13 PM   #35
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Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

Capping pre in HULHE confirmed non-GTO.
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Old 01-08-2015, 08:15 PM   #36
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Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

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I think the more obvious question to me is, are you guys too good for money? Even starting from a modest bankroll, if you believe this much in your solution you should be now smashing the biggest limits. I'm always skeptical of people who claim solutions but are not willing to pony up against the best in the world. Shouldn't you be siphoning all the money out of the last few remaining HULHE specialists?
As someone already brought up - GTO doesn't necessarily mean you'll be smashing people. It's very (very) good at not making mistakes, but not as good as pros at making someone pay for their mistakes.

So... against any comer, it would be a good bet to say the bot wins, but it could be quite a few hands to actually move it from a better-than-even coin flip. I _DO_ think a lot of poker players underestimate just how noisy money lines are: there's awareness that's it noisy, but I'm pretty it's actually worse than (many) people think.
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Old 01-08-2015, 08:16 PM   #37
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Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

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Originally Posted by TChan View Post
I think the more obvious question to me is, are you guys too good for money? Even starting from a modest bankroll, if you believe this much in your solution you should be now smashing the biggest limits. I'm always skeptical of people who claim solutions but are not willing to pony up against the best in the world. Shouldn't you be siphoning all the money out of the last few remaining HULHE specialists?
There's a difference between finding the solution and actually memorizing it.
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Old 01-08-2015, 08:17 PM   #38
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Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

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Wait, does this graph mean that the computer will NEVER cap it preflop on the btn?? Any time it gets 3b pre it just calls?

Are you colorblind? He caps both KK and QQ and even some more, 0.02 % of the time

I'm surprised that there exists a strategy in the support that is played with almost zero frequency though :O

Last edited by Joe Knott; 01-08-2015 at 08:23 PM.
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Old 01-08-2015, 08:43 PM   #39
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Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

This is really cool.
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Old 01-08-2015, 09:34 PM   #40
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Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

Congrats to the team, but this is really bad news for poker as a long-term profession.
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Uses 200 computer nodes each consisting of 24 2.1Ghz AMD cores, 32GB of ram, and 1TB disk
Entire solution will run on a graphene smartwatch in a few years.

InB4 a simcard the size of a fingernail wins a bracelet. #RobotTakeover
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Old 01-08-2015, 09:37 PM   #41
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Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

good players will find a way to adapt. those that don't will be left behind like always.
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Old 01-08-2015, 09:43 PM   #42
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Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

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good players will find a way to adapt. those that don't will be left behind like always.
The only adaptation that can come from this is really that online HULHE for money dies, like online chess for money did.

Not much change compared to today, in other words
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Old 01-08-2015, 09:53 PM   #43
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Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

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I think the more obvious question to me is, are you guys too good for money?
they're academics. in other words, yes
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Old 01-08-2015, 10:13 PM   #44
Garick
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Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

GTO means "not exploitable" which means "doesn't care how you respond." That does not mean "makes a ton of money." GTO is in no way "optimal" as poker player describe it (makes the most money). It is only "optimal" in that no matter how good you are you can't make a GTO strategy lose a ton of money. It is very likely that GTO in a fair zero sum poker game (no rake) is exactly neutral EV against everyone, from Joe Donk to Phil Ivey.

It is also possible (likely, imo) that in a raked game, GTO is a guaranteed slow loser.
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Old 01-08-2015, 10:18 PM   #45
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Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

so even if i shove every hand in nlhe or bet/raise every street in lhe, it's still possible that gto is neutral ev vs me?
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Old 01-08-2015, 10:20 PM   #46
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Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

In a poker game perfectly unexploitable play will beat everyone who is not playing an identical strategy. In some games you are correct that it will break even but poker is not one of them. In poker the further you are from unexploitable the more you will lose vs. this bot.

Just think about some absurd strategy like open folding every button. Obviously the bot would crush this strategy.

Now the bot won't win as much from a bad player as a human who can adjust to exploit might but it will beat everyone to some extent.
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Old 01-08-2015, 10:33 PM   #47
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Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

If you could take the computer which is illegal in the casino to play the Heads-Up poker video game you probably could destroy it.
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Old 01-08-2015, 10:43 PM   #48
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Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

Congratulations guys, impressive job.
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Old 01-08-2015, 10:45 PM   #49
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Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick View Post
GTO means "not exploitable" which means "doesn't care how you respond." That does not mean "makes a ton of money." GTO is in no way "optimal" as poker player describe it (makes the most money). It is only "optimal" in that no matter how good you are you can't make a GTO strategy lose a ton of money. It is very likely that GTO in a fair zero sum poker game (no rake) is exactly neutral EV against everyone, from Joe Donk to Phil Ivey.

It is also possible (likely, imo) that in a raked game, GTO is a guaranteed slow loser.
Thank you... I was about to ask if GTO is necessarily the most profitable in HULHE.
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Old 01-08-2015, 11:08 PM   #50
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Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

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It is very likely that GTO in a fair zero sum poker game (no rake) is exactly neutral EV against everyone, from Joe Donk to Phil Ivey.

It is also possible (likely, imo) that in a raked game, GTO is a guaranteed slow loser.
ffs no
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