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01-23-2015, 01:06 PM   #376
bachfan

Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 888
Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

Quote:
 Originally Posted by pies01 How you know that you have solved the game to 0.005?
It's actually pretty simple conceptually; all that is required is to walk through the entire game tree, look at what cepheus does in every spot, consider the probabilities for each of his hands given our hands (is cepheus a guy? derail...), and choose the action that maximizes ev. With some clever engineering and a large cluster of computers, the maximum ev of a perfect opponent can be computed relatively quickly (at least for huhu lhe).

There is at least one paper out there that outlines some of the tricks to making this computation run fast... sorry I don't have it on me on the moment.

01-23-2015, 03:17 PM   #377
nburch
newbie

Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 47
Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

Quote:
 Originally Posted by bachfan It's actually pretty simple conceptually; all that is required is to walk through the entire game tree, look at what cepheus does in every spot, consider the probabilities for each of his hands given our hands (is cepheus a guy? derail...), and choose the action that maximizes ev. With some clever engineering and a large cluster of computers, the maximum ev of a perfect opponent can be computed relatively quickly (at least for huhu lhe). There is at least one paper out there that outlines some of the tricks to making this computation run fast... sorry I don't have it on me on the moment.
bachfan's got it.

The biggest trick is probably computing values for all hands in ~1000 operations instead of ~1,000,000 operations: if you did things in the obvious way, looking at the value for one hand requires looking at ~1000 opponent hands and there are ~1000 hands. Described in http://poker.cs.ualberta.ca/publicat...t_response.pdf

pies01, if you were wondering about the specific advantage for the small blind and big blind, here's what we have. If you played perfectly as the small blind you would lose 87.718 mbig-blind/hand (4.3859 big blinds/100 assuming I can do basic math) to Cepheus. Playing perfectly as the big blind, you would win 89.691 mbig-blind/hand. Add that together, you would be ahead by 1.9727mbig-blind/2hands = 0.9863mbig-blind/hand.

(Just to make it clear, in this case by played perfectly I mean that you would pick actions which take the most possible money from Cepheus. You wouldn't have to play GTO to take Cepheus' money.)

 01-24-2015, 03:41 AM #378 pies01 grinder   Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 570 Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time Sorry, I meant epsilon equilibrium distance. What I really mean is do you have EV data from specific nodes in the tree (as defined in CardRunners EV - which is what I think you mean by a public state tree). For example do you have the BB/SB EV at the start of the flop when the preflop action goes raise,raise,call, the flop then comes As7h9d and both players play according to cepheus. Can you tell us the EV for both players and the exploitability for both players from that node in the tree?
 01-24-2015, 11:15 AM #379 BitchiBee Carpal \'Tunnel     Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 24,617 Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time big blind has advantage vs cepheus?
 01-24-2015, 11:51 PM #380 ninetynine99 Carpal \'Tunnel     Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Who wants to know? Posts: 9,241 Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time Argh!!! Had to wait 90 minutes then the damn game froze and crashed on me after 10 hands. Was down 1 SB at the time but I was likely ahead on the hand that play crashed. Only logical explanation is Cepheus had calculated that he was gonna lose so he froze me out.
01-25-2015, 12:32 AM   #381
owster
old hand

Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,411
Quote:
 Originally Posted by ninetynine99 Argh!!! Had to wait 90 minutes then the damn game froze and crashed on me after 10 hands. Was down 1 SB at the time but I was likely ahead on the hand that play crashed. Only logical explanation is Cepheus had calculated that he was gonna lose so he froze me out.
So DOS attacks might be included in the GTO strategy?

 01-25-2015, 06:17 PM #382 mme old hand     Join Date: May 2009 Location: true anti-CFR-HUDs Posts: 1,668 Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time how about a nice game of chess?
01-25-2015, 08:36 PM   #383
Wolfram
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: You can be my wingman any time
Posts: 14,742
Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

Quote:
 Originally Posted by mme how about a nice game of chess?
There's no such thing as a nice game of chess. It's a blood sport.

01-25-2015, 09:44 PM   #384
kurdishace
newbie

Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21
Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

Quote:
 Originally Posted by LektorAJ ^ This sounds like the stuff where we have to ask China to invade Taiwan 1 000 000 times so we can calibrate our military planning AI. It's fine for games but its a bit of a dead end for more real world stuff.
In the article, I believe they did mention application for diabetic research leading to self calibrating devices with self teaching.. something alongs those lines. so dont be quick to discredit them.

On a side note... Cepheus... Me and you, Flagpole 3PM buddy. Bring your BR, mines a mr.noodle and some mike and ikes.. and no I am not in jail.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by gadgetguru Thuban is being developed for this game: http://youtu.be/kIcxV-VOPlE It will run on over 1000 abacuses and powered by gamblers hopes. Confirmed gto soon.
rofl

Last edited by kurdishace; 01-25-2015 at 10:03 PM.

01-25-2015, 10:22 PM   #385
J0hny
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 6,397
Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

Quote:
Great stuff!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by chinagambler HUNLHE confirmed 10^90 times harder than chess.
I wonder where would plo stand in that list.

01-26-2015, 10:13 AM   #386
ArtyMcFly
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Enchantment Under the Sea
Posts: 13,256
Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

Quote:
 Originally Posted by J0hny I wonder where would plo stand in that list.
PLO can be solved using precisely the same "brute force" methods as NLH. There's more combos to enter into the database, but the process is exactly the same. In the TP podcast, it sounded like the Alberta team has no interest in trying to solve PLO, because it's basically the same game as NLH, so finding a solution has no "real world" use. i.e. Once you've developed an algorithm for solving a poker game, there's barely any point in laboriously calculating the solution for each and every variant of that game. Altering the algorithms in order to treat diabetes or other diseases has a higher priority.

 01-26-2015, 12:36 PM #387 watergun7 veteran   Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 2,767 Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time PLO play between humans is going to be much more about "feel" though. Since with close equity runs and huge hand ranges many decisions are gonna be indifferent. So there will be a huge number of mixed strats where you are supposed to bet from 1% of the time to 99% of the time etc. Also there are things you can do in backgammon/chess to trick the computer (though admittedly a non-gto computer) and get a theoretically provable edge, but I'm not sure if you can do that in poker.
 01-26-2015, 12:45 PM #388 Mubsy Bogues banned     Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 1,265 Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time Still haven't been able to play this ****ing thing. I bookmarked the site and check it daily but it's always down for updates or says 'too many in queue'
01-26-2015, 11:27 PM   #389
peetar69
old hand

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,554
Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

Quote:
 Originally Posted by bigslick518 "I'm ready to go pro now, mom!"
Very well done sir. You spanked the bot in hand. Just for the record I did 2!

It's fantastic to get my run good out of the way in
a play money game.

01-26-2015, 11:32 PM   #390
peetar69
old hand

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,554
Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Mubsy Bogues Still haven't been able to play this ****ing thing. I bookmarked the site and check it daily but it's always down for updates or says 'too many in queue'
You have to wait for a match to end and then hit the queue pretty fast. Took a little over an hour on wait list before my turn came up.

01-27-2015, 03:16 AM   #391
old hand

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,324
Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Wolfram There's no such thing as a nice game of chess. It's a blood sport.
Not according to Joshua, the computer in War Games.

"Who about a nice game of chess.?"

 01-27-2015, 06:36 AM #392 Flushstraightin journeyman     Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 208 Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time Anyone posting results? First attempt I won by 470. Gotta love rakeless games. Last edited by Flushstraightin; 01-27-2015 at 06:45 AM.
 01-29-2015, 08:01 AM #393 OditeRussia adept     Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 1,180 Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time Won by 85, not going to lie I got tilted playing a computer http://gyazo.com/b5317a37201212d629f81770fc15d55f
 01-29-2015, 04:11 PM #394 SuperGreg enthusiast   Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 53 Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time If this is just a big lookup table why can't this computer play hundreds of people at the same time??
 01-29-2015, 09:17 PM #395 Bobo Fett 2+2 Ad Man     Join Date: May 2006 Location: Canada, eh! Posts: 50,137 Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time Because it's not just a big lookup table.
 01-30-2015, 01:12 AM #396 tuccotrading old hand   Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,324 Re: Computers Conquer Texas Hold'em Poker for First Time I think both Joshua and HAL can beat this program. ........ They looked very tough in War Games and 2001: A Space Odyssey.

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