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Collusion or not, you be the judge Collusion or not, you be the judge

08-03-2010 , 02:04 PM
* Camera Model = T-Mobile G1
Collusion or not, you be the judge Quote
08-03-2010 , 02:12 PM
TAKE MANEY THE F DO
Collusion or not, you be the judge Quote
08-03-2010 , 02:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VP$IP
I have started withdrawing my money from Stars.

Sad.
Yeah, me too. Guess that I'm done with it. I haven't been feelin' it for a while anyway. Opponents using too many weapons that I refuse to use.

Are we sure Josem's 2p2 account hasn't been hacked?

Where's PSMichaelJ when you need him?

gotTogo
Collusion or not, you be the judge Quote
08-03-2010 , 02:24 PM
That would explain the strange posts.

Quote:
BEWARE OF HACKED ACCOUNTS LINKING TO FORUM ARCHIVES!
Somebody has set up a phishing page resembling the forum archives. They have successfully hacked a number of accounts and are making posts with links to this fake page.
Collusion or not, you be the judge Quote
08-03-2010 , 02:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MicroBob
limon - How do think it is better than 50/50 that they aren't cheating? Just curious.

You don't need to set up a different computer with an air-card just to rail somebody.

I don't think it's 100% that they are cheating. There are some goofy scenarios and hypotheticals to justify what they are doing without it being cheating.

But I think it's less than 50/50 for 3 players to use 2 computers each AND with air-cards without it being a situation where they are breaking the rules somehow.
i dunno. the douche quotient in this photo is so high it almost seems like it could be a setup or joke. setting up six laptops in a borders, wearing gay pokersite gear, trying to attract attention to yourself...etc. these dudes are too unsophisticated to be an actual cheating team (by los angeles standards) but they still could be cheating just by ghosting/softplaying/besthanding, you know the stuff that is considered "standard" over at HSNL...lol
Collusion or not, you be the judge Quote
08-03-2010 , 02:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VP$IP
That would explain the strange posts.
i hope the hacking explanation is true. even if it isnt the guy should claim he was hacked to back out of his previous statements.
Collusion or not, you be the judge Quote
08-03-2010 , 02:38 PM
didn't think of the possibility that they would just be joking around.

To answer your previous Q: yes, josem works for Stars security (one of the top dogs in that department I believe). He also posts as PSMichaelJ on here.

Before he worked for Stars and was just a regular player like the rest of us he was hugely responsible for proving that the UP/AP superuser dudes were indeed so far outside the norm that they couldn't possibly be regular players. He was interviewed in the 60 Minutes story about it. We are all indebted to him fairly significantly just for his work on that issue alone. His impressive work in that case caught Stars' attention and they eventually brought him in to work in their security dept...after presumably interviewing him to at least convince themselves he wouldn't endlessly babble about Australian Rules Football all day with his colleagues.
Collusion or not, you be the judge Quote
08-03-2010 , 02:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VP$IP
They don't appear to be hiding it.

If they were cheating, wouldn't they be out in the parking lot?

They look like 2+2 poasters. Maybe they will tell us.
They look like they never got laid and enjoy playing Magic The Gathering?
Collusion or not, you be the judge Quote
08-03-2010 , 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MicroBob
didn't think of the possibility that they would just be joking around.

To answer your previous Q: yes, josem works for Stars security (one of the top dogs in that department I believe). He also posts as PSMichaelJ on here.

Before he worked for Stars and was just a regular player like the rest of us he was hugely responsible for proving that the UP/AP superuser dudes were indeed so far outside the norm that they couldn't possibly be regular players. He was interviewed in the 60 Minutes story about it. We are all indebted to him fairly significantly just for his work on that issue alone. His impressive work in that case caught Stars' attention and they eventually brought him in to work in their security dept...after presumably interviewing him to at least convince themselves he wouldn't endlessly babble about Australian Rules Football all day with his colleagues.
it seems then that he should act in a more professional manner even if he does, in his heart of hearts, believe this is a non story. WHICH IT ISNT, even if it is a setup or joke it should not be prejudged and it should investigated as if an actual cheating ring was outed.
Collusion or not, you be the judge Quote
08-03-2010 , 03:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by limon
i dunno. the douche quotient in this photo is so high it almost seems like it could be a setup or joke.
this made me laugh and i think it is a realistic possibility. Just as realistic as "cheaters are morons so they wouldnt think about not doing it in a public location"

like hell they could be a poker house that got all ripped and thought it would be funny to go set up shop at a coffee shop and grind some play money while wearing pstars hats just to see what people would do.

or someone is just playing a joke on the 2+2 tinfoil hat police
Collusion or not, you be the judge Quote
08-03-2010 , 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by equalsfour?
this made me laugh and i think it is a realistic possibility. Just as realistic as "cheaters are morons so they wouldnt think about not doing it in a public location"

like hell they could be a poker house that got all ripped and thought it would be funny to go set up shop at a coffee shop and grind some play money while wearing pstars hats just to see what people would do.

or someone is just playing a joke on the 2+2 tinfoil hat police
I think we should all be thankful for the 2+2 tinfoil hat police. The joke is actually on pokerstars security.
Collusion or not, you be the judge Quote
08-03-2010 , 03:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by limon
i dunno. the douche quotient in this photo is so high it almost seems like it could be a setup or joke. setting up six laptops in a borders, wearing gay pokersite gear, trying to attract attention to yourself...etc. these dudes are too unsophisticated to be an actual cheating team (by los angeles standards) but they still could be cheating just by ghosting/softplaying/besthanding, you know the stuff that is considered "standard" over at HSNL...lol
Are we looking at the same picture? One of the three guys is wearing a FTP hat backwards, and suddenly they're "wearing gay pokersite gear"? Also where is softplaying/besthanding considered standard in HSNL? Must have missed that one...
Collusion or not, you be the judge Quote
08-03-2010 , 03:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wamplerr

I realize this isn't top priority, but it would be nice to see that Stars can think out of the box on collusion issues.
Why wouldnt it be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicroBob
Josem - I think this is not a very good response at all.

Firstly, somebody could help you get the IP address of the borders in question. I'm sure it's not too hard to look it up online.

Secondly, why are you ignoring the very obvious aspect that some of the computers have wireless air-cards?

I'm really confused by some of your responses in this thread.

Granted, this would be a slightly more difficult one to figure out and it would have been nice if the person observing this had done more than just take one picture. But I don't think figuring this out a bit further should be completely impossible.

It almost seems like you are willfully ignoring some of the other aspects discussed in this thread. I do not understand how you can NOT think it suspicious at all that one player would be playing on two different computers at the same time....much less three different guys all doing that.

The people in this thread are actually going pretty far out of their way to help you and you seem to be kind of blowing them off.
this. My view on pokerstars security has changed drastically lately
Collusion or not, you be the judge Quote
08-03-2010 , 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by limon
I think we should all be thankful for the 2+2 tinfoil hat police. The joke is actually on pokerstars security.
+1
Collusion or not, you be the judge Quote
08-03-2010 , 04:58 PM
Collusion or not, you be the judge Quote
08-03-2010 , 05:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VP$IP
They look like 2+2 poasters.
THE single best post ever made on 2+2. I cannot stop laughing.
Collusion or not, you be the judge Quote
08-03-2010 , 06:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MicroRoller
Other's have made similar observations but I thought I'd throw in my take on it as well.

Here are tables from laptops 1 and 3. I tried to sharpen the images and adjust the contrast to bring out the details a little bit. I also fixed the perspective.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Assuming the players aren't using the preferred seat feature it looks a whole lot like the same table.

Both tables appear to have the same number of players and the betting and button appears to be the same. Laptop 3 isn't very clear but there seems to be a lot of similarities.

Seat 9 is the button, 10 is the SB, 1 is the BB. These three players apear to have chips in front of them.

Player 1 is UTG and decided to play his hand. Looks like he has at least 1 face card.

Player in seat 8 looks like he raised over UTG as there are chips in front of him and the auto action checkboxes appear on the bottom right of player 1's screen.

Seats 4,5 and 7 appear to have folded.

On the laptop1 table action seems to be on the BB since his seat is highlighted but I can't see the same on laptop3. It might be because the image is bad and there's a lot of glare on the screen or the different theme or maybe they don't all blink at the same time.

Laptop 3 appears to be using the Slick Light theme (maybe with a different background?) and the highlights on that are pretty subtle.

Laptop 1 looks like it's using some sort of variation of hyper simple.

Laptop 5 is partially obscured and much smaller but it appears as if seats 1, 2, 4 and 5 are seated just as in laptops 1 and 3.

It would be nice if somehow PokerStars could use the time, location and information available in the photos to try and track down who these players are and find out what's really going on because this seems very suspicious and there has been a lot of collussion in the DoNs which this could certainly be. It could also be a fixed limit table as those are 10 seats as well and I understand collusion could be a problem there as well. Most likely a DoN since the seats are empty instead of having the empty seat place holder that are found in cash games.

PokerStars seems to be pretty good about identifying cheats so maybe they'll come up with something. Maybe they can filter all the DoNs played around that time (LV time?) where seats 3,6 and 7 were knocked out, UTG bet or raised and seat 8 raised UTG's bet or raise and UTG had at least one face card. That should narrow it down a bit. Then see if UTG seems to play with the same 2 people often.

A bit disappointing that a poker journalist couldn't do better than this one snapshot. Could have at least walked up behind them to take a better shot pretending to take a photo of the performer. This is the same chick that complained on Twitter that final tablists of one sunday million were inconsiderate of the poker media because they kept asking for deal numbers every hand or something like that so she had to stay up late right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuotedForTruth
Quote:
EXIF IFD0

* Camera Make = HTC
* Camera Model = T-Mobile G1
* X-Resolution = 72/1 ===> 72
* Y-Resolution = 72/1 ===> 72
* X/Y-Resolution Unit = inch (2)
* Y/Cb/Cr Positioning (Subsampling) = centered / center of pixel array (1)

EXIF Sub IFD

* EXIF Version = 0220
* Original Date/Time = 2010:07:30 19:34:03
* Digitization Date/Time = 2010:07:30 19:34:03
* Components Configuration = 0x01,0x02,0x03,0x00 / YCbCr
* FlashPix Version = 0100
* Colour Space = sRGB (1)
* Image Width = 2048 pixels
* Image Height = 1536 pixels
The photos exif data says it was taken at 7:34 on July 30th.
Nice work, guys.

So we have the state of the table and timing information. Since the picture was taken by a mobile phone, there is a good chance that the camera clock is adjusted by the phone network, perhaps accurate to the second. The accuracy and the timezone of the camera clock should be checked with Jessica Welman, of course.

Combining these two pieces of information, there is obviously a very good chance that the actual hand that was being played can be found (ring game or some kind of tournament is yet to be decided, isn't it?), limiting the initial list of possible suspect accounts to those seated at that table.

From there on, it's a relatively simple task to check for suspect play.

I'd be surprised if PS is set up to hunt down hands on criteria such as these though, so it might be a while until there are results, if they decide to go for it.
Collusion or not, you be the judge Quote
08-03-2010 , 06:41 PM
But they already decided NOT to go for it.
Josem was very clear about that.

Unless we get signed confessions from them maybe?... somehow?
Lets go.
Can anyone ninja?
I think I can still do that facekick (cranekick?) I learned long ago from mr. Miyagi (Daniel-san wasn't the only one).
Anyone else?
LETS DO THIS!!!

Or....better idea... quit Poker Stars.
Too many scandals and cheating going on there lately, or probably for a long time without our knowledge
Collusion or not, you be the judge Quote
08-03-2010 , 07:08 PM
Do you guys who are quitting stars honestly think Full Tilt or any other US friendly poker site would open an investigation over that pic?
Collusion or not, you be the judge Quote
08-03-2010 , 07:15 PM
This isn't a "3 amigos" trifecta, it's at least 4 players. Player on the far right is leaning out of his chair to play the pc in front of the empty chair. Why sit in an uncomfortable fashion unless it were temporary?

Another note to make is the possibility that a couple of the players are just observing either another players game or the game of someone not present(which would explain the same table on two screens). Just saying you can't rule it out.

An example would be they are fans of a popular player playing highstakes poker and railing that game while they grind their game. Evidence points against this because of being 10-handed, but just an example. There is not enough evidence.

One last thing to point out, having PS security use resources, time, and money to investigate all claims without some credible evidence while also complaining about the rake/VIP system/etc. doesnt make sense.

However, being that some members have already explained how to check at that particular time would save alot of searching, and I would like to see this checked.

Last edited by Zinger; 08-03-2010 at 07:21 PM.
Collusion or not, you be the judge Quote
08-03-2010 , 07:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flip-Flop
But they already decided NOT to go for it.
Josem was very clear about that.
According to Wellman, they had pokerstars running on all 6 laptops. From the photo you can see the guy on the right has a pokerstars table open on one laptop and the pokerstars lobby open on the other.

At the very least they're multi accounting. I can't think of any legitimate reason to be logged in with two different accounts at the same time.

Based on the photo it really looks like at least two of them are playing in the same DoN SNG.

While there's a chance that they're not colluding I think there's enough evidence that makes it look very suspicious and worth looking into. I'm a bit surprised and put off that someone that works for pokerstars security doesn't seem that concerned about it.

Knowing the time the photo was taken and the action on the table as well as the type of game and number of players left I would think it would be possible to sift through some of the HHs and probably be able to identify at least one of the players. after that look for players that that player seems to play with frequently and look for irregularities.
Collusion or not, you be the judge Quote
08-03-2010 , 07:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resistance
Do you guys who are quitting stars honestly think Full Tilt or any other US friendly poker site would open an investigation over that pic?
No.
Collusion or not, you be the judge Quote
08-03-2010 , 07:26 PM
I understand why some players are strong in their opinion to research this to full-capacity and I also understand why PS wants a better piece of evidence to start an investigation. Being that a lot of the initial leg work has already been done(when/where to start looking) makes this necessary imo. If you are security, that is your job. If more then one person displays a concern, it's time to go against your own experience and look into it.

It is not a cat making a ruckus if more then one store owner contacts mall security. Even if it is a cat.
Collusion or not, you be the judge Quote
08-03-2010 , 07:28 PM
Firstly, I apologise for my comments earlier in the thread. I made a mistake in not recognising the seriousness of this. I stuffed up, and I apologise for that.

On the issue of identifying the accounts involved, I already contacted the photographer, but unfortunately, we were not able to obtain further details to help identify the players in question.

I do not think it is going to be feasible to identify the accounts in question by figuring out the time and recreating the action of the hands. Instead, I believe that the best chance of investigating further would revolve around identifying the individuals or IP addresses involved. If anyone is able to assist with this, please send me a PM or email as you see fit.
Collusion or not, you be the judge Quote
08-03-2010 , 07:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resistance
Do you guys who are quitting stars honestly think Full Tilt or any other US friendly poker site would open an investigation over that pic?
I'm from Europe and have access to any poker site I want.
Since 2002 to this day I've only played on 4 sites.
Recently I decided to abandon stars so I'm down to a single poker site, FTP.
They haven't had any type of major scandal (that I know of) and they seem to ban and freeze suspicious accounts at the rate that borders paranoia and that's a plus in my book.
So I feel the chance of being cheated is smallest at FTP.
However, in case of a scandal at FTP I'm done with online forever, which is not so bad since I've been playing live for a long time and in the last year or so live poker is booming where I live.

And to answer your question directly, seeing how trigger happy FTP has been against anything even slightly suspicious yes, I believe FTP would open an investigation over that picture.
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