App-based clubs are here to stay. It’s very clear PokerBros/ClubGG have tremendous product-market fit.

Playing in app-based clubs is higher $EV/hour than playing in public sites like ACR/Stars. If you haven’t noticed, mid-high stakes cash on the standard public sites is on its deathbed.

Finding the safe/fair and lucrative clubs while avoiding the shitclubs is just another part of being a skilled, smart player and maximizing your EV.

If you are still naively trying to climb the poker ladder solely via Stars Zoom/ACR Blitz the old fashioned way, you are way behind the curve and ngmi. You can be more resourceful than that to easily increase your EV. Very low hanging fruit for ppl playing 100NL+.

In addition, there’s nothing wrong with club owners making money if they are delivering value via safe/fair mid-high stakes games that are full of fish. That is a very valuable in-demand product, which is going extinct at the public online sites.

Prominent unions/clubs really should have a designated “2p2 rep” from their team to come answer questions and help clear up issues like this. Letting the FUD run rampant here seems bad.

If anyone here want to talk more about app-based clubs feel free to DM here or on Twitter. Most 2p2 users are def sharper than the average poker player and I actually care to hear what you guys think, it helps me learn.

Tell me you're an agent trying to sell me on your club without telling me you're an agent trying to sell me on your club

No mention that the rake is 2-2.5x higher? And it’s even higher if you are in some soft private game.

I got the money but I don't know "cruella".
I just get my 6139 chip.
Maybe app have something wrong.

Lock the thread he got paid.

Is there any sort of poker shenanigans which people won't call a Ponzi scheme?

Yes but did he get paid because they were going to pay him anyway, or did he only get paid because he outed them on this thread for not paying him?

I think twoplustwo needs to make an overall business/editorial/ethics decision as to whether they want to sweep all of the apparent issues there are with these apps under the carpet/rug, or if they should let the many grievances about these apps be aired on the forum.

It could well be that these apps are a net +EV for the typical twoplustwo poster and forum reader, because despite the high rake and the possibility of some agents/game runners not paying out, the games are very soft, plus if there is some colluding and/or multi accounting going on, it might be weighted towards twoplustwo users and readers who are the ones that are actually doing it, and the same could probably be said about who the agents and game runners are, again it is likely to be many players who post on or read this forum.

I thought poker was supposed to be a game of skill where the stronger players profit and the weaker players lose, and that's fine with me.

But not a game, where you're happy to cheat/scam/mislead/omit important info, as long as it benefits you.

Once the above sentence becomes acceptable by most players, then poker ceases to be game anymore, and it has become a form of criminality, disguised as a game, and promoted by people who are actors who give you something good or nice, such as good poker content and some nice promotions, but at the same time they are taking way, way more than they are giving.

These apps, according to many people who have played on them, have a lot of cheating, very high rake that isn't highlighted by your friendly neighbourhood smiley faced poker vlogger agent, and a much higher chance of having your money stolen by an unscrupulous agent or game runner/creator.

I saw through these poker vloggers a long time ago. Nearly all of them are fake.

You may also be breaking the law, even as a player on the apps. We don't know what may happen with the law in future and to what degree it might be applied retrospectively.

app based clubs could be cool in theory if they were not so greedy with the rake. an acual good app club would have 0 rake and you just tip your agent a % and he tips a %. Then poker sites are meaningless and everyone plays there

I partly agree with this, but they would still offer no protection against collusion/multi accounting, plus still the risk of the agent/club defaulting.

sure but that would be a people problem not an app problem. You would have a directory of trusted agents and when your big enough you could guarantee payouts for some of them if they scam .The problem would be marketing you would need someone like mr beast and boom you have a billion dollar business . It would be cool because only winning players would have to tip their agent a % so rec players would play for free and you would have a good eco system. My guess is the reason it has not happen is legal reasons pretty much all these small apps are breaking a million laws

He showed in one of his youtube videos that he makes close to 200$k / year only from ad revenue .
Thats pretty insane

But you make a good point that its hard to move up the live stakes , only by playing good poker
I raised my suspicion about the LA live Regs scene as well

Surely these app games are infested with colluders, either two or more friends colluding, or multi-accounters colluding with themselves, so if you are an agent you would know this and either be a colluder yourself, or not play on the app yourself, or you might play a little if you are a vlogger or an influencer of some kind, just to give the appearance to your followers that the games are not crooked.

Because it must be so easy to collude, perhaps not as easy to multi account, there must be a lot of pairs/teams of colluders battling with other pairs/teams of colluders, plus just a few people (or maybe a lot of people) that are not colluding and who are unaware of the massive disadvantage that they are at.

Of course, agents and game runners won't care about a lot of colluder on colluder action, as it is just extra rake for them.

If the above is anything close to the reality of these app games, then the bigger crime IMO is not circumventing the Federal Wire Act, the bigger crime being perpetrated by agents and game runners is that any non colluders in the games, many of whom have been lured in by poker vloggers, are effectively being stolen from, as they have little or no chance of winning given the combined effects of high rake, plus colluders playing against them.

I would welcome any poker vlogger who is an agent for an app and/or runs a game (a club) on an app to comment on all of the above, give their side of it, and justify why they are promoting these apps.

how is it possible that nobody goes after them for advertising illegal gambling ?

They are pretty careful about using the world money even when asking in discord we had to use the term "beanz" altho discord still banned the one app group I was in (greg goes allin) then he had to make a ghetto no named discord copycat

Speaking of the word beans(z), this thread is starting to spill the beans on what is really going on with these apps.

In the OP's messages with the app he used, that he's posted ITT, they used the word "chips" but then later used the word "funds",
so I doubt they are really that careful overall. They are all getting away with what they are doing, seemingly very easily, so are not covering their tracks at all. Also, if they didn't think that they were breaking the law then why would they use substitute words at all?

Also, why would there ever be a "security" issue, as they put it, if it really only was play money.

I think it's transparently obvious that everything is representative of real money. There is mountains of evidence of this. Will the authorities ever go after this part of the poker "industry", who knows.

Also, ffs, so even greg goes allin is an agent too, or maybe runs a club, the guy who does the funny poker videos and parodies.

As I said, most of these people are fake.

I’m quite surprised this stuff hasn’t come out sooner or isn’t more widely known.

The club Johnnievibes runs and promotes along with Rampage and Mariano has made them a fortune. I’ve been told Rampage has been paid north of 6 figures for a months revenue. Whether this is an ongoing estimate or a peak month I don’t know but it gives you an idea of how lucrative the operation is.

The rake in the GG club is as follows:

- 5% 2.5bb cap on 5/10
- 5% 3bb cap .5/1, 1/2, 2/4 and 3/6
- 3.5% uncapped on .25/.50 and below

Currently there are 15 games running and it’s 10am PST. I have seen upwards of 20 games running routinely during the day.

There’s a reason Rampage can punt off 100k+ on a stream and then make a video right afterwards nonchalantly acting like it didn’t matter. YouTube revenue really isn’t that much especially when you take into account the taxes that have to be paid on the the Google pay check.

Pre pandemic JV was talking about not having much money and downswinging. Not long afterwards he’s sharing on twitter how he bought a bored ape for 40eth (when eth was around 4k). Where do you think that crypto suddenly came from?

I think it’s one thing to provide a service that’s needed and another to take advantage of your fan base. JV was using his platform to promote how he was hosting rake free tourneys to get people into the main even, even posting videos of himself handing out 10k bricks to the winners outside of the Rio. The thing is these rake free tourneys were a funnel into the not so rake free cash games…brilliant. If these games took $3-4 a hand at 1/2+ I’d argue at least they’re providing a relatively safe online option as I’m sure their reputation is too important to run off with the money (albeit no real protection Vs cheating/collusion which I’m not sure any club or app can provide). However when you’re taking more than a brick and mortar casino does, well now you’re robbing your fans and smiling all the way to the bank.

This model is nothing new and it’s made many many influencers rich as they pivoted during the pandemic. People like Suited Superman leveraged their Instagram account to promote clubs and start his own.

They aren’t the first to get rich via these means but it’s absurd that most have no clue that the reason they’re playing high stakes is because they’re operating as an online casino. JV doesn’t even need to make YouTube videos much anymore because the operation is much more lucrative than spending time on making content.

As for the banning of winning accounts, that’s nothing new within these app clubs. Their goal is to have the games run as long as possible with fish punting money back and forth while they make bank. If one user is withdrawing too much over time then it’s bad for their bottom line. Most clubs will then come up with some excuse on why you are no longer welcome or present you with the option of splitting profits with them. I know many pros who will then accept that deal as making some money is better than not. Further evidence of just how greedy the whole operation is.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thank you for sharing all of the above

Taxes have to be paid on that income as well even if it's coming from a potentially illegal/under the table source. I doubt they'd be stupid enough to not pay their taxes although obviously it's possible.

Is the Rampage club part of a union?
Did this player have another account in a different club in the union?

the op seems to deny it to the point of refusing extra money...

It would be nice if there was an update on this later. Maybe OP played live somewhere that cruella also played live, causing a shared IP on the accounts.

Yes of course if they want to freely spend the money. That said the crypto can be obfuscated. JV has spoken freely about supporting some friends crypto fund so I’m sure he just rolls it all into that.

Also JV has incorporated some business with another individual. I forget now what it was but I saw it on linkedin. I’m sure he’s using this business to funnel the funds and report the revenue as legitimate. I haven’t checked it recently as you need to be logged in I believe but I know it was there before.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnnie-moreno-1545bb111

Al Capone once said:

"They Can’t Collect Legal Taxes From Illegal Money"

Capone was convicted on five counts of income tax evasion on October 17, 1931, and was sentenced a week later to 11 years in federal prison, fined $50,000 plus $7,692 for court costs, and was held liable for $215,000 plus interest due on his back taxes.

The people who push the clubs talk about security but the apps can't even keep people off of emulators. You can play on an emulator with a blocker on your computer from any location you choose. Then play simultaneously at the same tables on your phone. In 2020 the games were so soft, you could overcome the rake and the potential cheating. To beat that rake you need multiple massive whales at every table and it hasn't been that way in a while. Someone will jump in and say that the money is in the private games. Sure it is. 10% rake with a $50 cap at 5/10 and/or a 10% tax on earnings. Pretty easy to spot who is making the money.

Paging WCGrider for a deep dive investigation video. I hear he’s a big fan of the vibes 😂

There are few good guy, and good gal, vloggers out there, well at least I hope that there are. Vloggers with a moral compass.

The ones who don't have a moral compass and who in my opinion are indirectly stealing from some of their fans, by leading them into unbeatable, crooked games, should be exposed for what they are.

This will leave the way clear for the vloggers who haven't resorted to taking unethical (and possibly illegal) shortcuts, to take their rightful place in the market.

Yes, hardworking poker vloggers, who haven't taken shortcuts, are also being in effect stolen from by those who are taking shortcuts.

I actually came on here to post that I'm shocked more people haven't gotten in trouble for tax evasion with all of this money going back and forth.
Maybe you're right but I'd actually be surprised if most of these agents were paying taxes.