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Old 07-10-2018, 02:41 PM   #1
Videopro
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Civility at the poker table (catch all)

Given the recent spate of threads on specific folks that are jerks at the table, there does seem to be the need to discuss this in generalities.

Some venues have some rules about swearing at the table but there is not much written into the rulebook about berating.

Here is some of my take to get started. This is such a grey area I think everything needs to be taken into context. Is the intent to be playful and joking or is it or belittle and insult? The same dialog can go either way.

I think this is up to the person on the receiving end. If someone at the table feels that they are being insulted, belittled, or harassed then they should have the right to ask the person to stop taking to them and this needs to be enforced by the dealers and the floor. Starting with a warning at first, a timeout away from the table for the second offence and 86'ed for the third.

Last edited by Videopro; 07-10-2018 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 07-10-2018, 08:47 PM   #2
Gzesh
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Re: Civility at the poker table (catch all)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXITEJc06_A

Should "speech play" be banned or encouraged ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUl0ZIQvvAU

Last edited by Gzesh; 07-10-2018 at 08:58 PM.
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Old 07-10-2018, 08:52 PM   #3
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Re: Civility at the poker table (catch all)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gzesh View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXITEJc06_A

Should "speech play" be banned or encouraged ?
I'm OK with just a floor warning for saying "Check Your Privilege" at a Poker Table LOL.
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Old 07-10-2018, 08:53 PM   #4
synth_floyd
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Re: Civility at the poker table (catch all)

"Check your privilege" doesn't mean anything it's just what happened to come out of his mouth when he wasn't thinking clearly because Kassouf put him on monkey tilt. It reminds me of that incident when Michael Richards was doing standup, he got heckled and didn't know how to handle it properly so he started screaming the N word.

But as to what Kassouf was doing, he was just annoying the **** out of his opponents. He wasn't insulting anyone but most people took offense to it and reacted accordingly. What's the line between being rude and offensive without actually using any rude or offensive words (curse words, insults, etc.)?
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Old 07-10-2018, 08:58 PM   #5
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Re: Civility at the poker table (catch all)

Quote:
Originally Posted by synth_floyd View Post
"Check your privilege" doesn't mean anything it's just what happened to come out of his mouth when he wasn't thinking clearly because Kassouf put him on monkey tilt. It reminds me of that incident when Michael Richards was doing standup, he got heckled and didn't know how to handle it properly so he started screaming the N word.

But as to what Kassouf was doing, he was just annoying the **** out of his opponents. He wasn't insulting anyone but most people took offense to it and reacted accordingly. What's the line between being rude and offensive without actually using any rude or offensive words (curse words, insults, etc.)?
https://www.google.com/search?client...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
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Old 07-10-2018, 09:00 PM   #6
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Re: Civility at the poker table (catch all)

Yes I know it is a phrase with an actual meaning but he was not using it to convey the meaning of that phrase. He was tilted out of his mind and the words that his brain happened to latch onto were "check your privilege" so he said that a bunch of times to convey his frustration with Kassouf.
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Old 07-10-2018, 09:53 PM   #7
Gzesh
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Re: Civility at the poker table (catch all)

Quote:
Originally Posted by synth_floyd View Post
Yes I know it is a phrase with an actual meaning but he was not using it to convey the meaning of that phrase. He was tilted out of his mind and the words that his brain happened to latch onto were "check your privilege" so he said that a bunch of times to convey his frustration with Kassouf.
Your read is that he is "tilted out of his mind" ,while he is holding AA pre-flop ?

Really ?

Joey has a good clip included at 3:12 where Benger speaks about liking to use table talking to get into his opponent's head.
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:12 PM   #8
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Re: Civility at the poker table (catch all)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gzesh View Post
Your read is that he is "tilted out of his mind" ,while he is holding AA pre-flop ?
Clearly the incessant, obnoxious "speech play" (and all the shocking tanking) has finally got to Benger and he snaps. Nothing to do with him holding AA

Kassouf deliberately does not abuse or berate other players (on evidence seen in various tournies). But he is deliberately annoying and distracting to them with his chatter and his tanking. His view is that as he is not swearing or abusing then his speech play is within the written rules. If he is at a social table where the rest of the players are joining in the banter and don't mind his chatter then I guess that is fine.

But IMO if he is setting out to annoy and distract other players to give himself an advantage, and someone at the table objects to this, then the floor should be able to intervene to shut him up. Being annoying and distracting (and excessive tanking) is not good for the game or necessarily fair to other players

Last edited by Stupor; 07-10-2018 at 10:15 PM. Reason: also the tanking
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:31 AM   #9
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Re: Civility at the poker table (catch all)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stupor View Post
Clearly the incessant, obnoxious "speech play" (and all the shocking tanking) has finally got to Benger and he snaps. Nothing to do with him holding AA

Kassouf deliberately does not abuse or berate other players (on evidence seen in various tournies). But he is deliberately annoying and distracting to them with his chatter and his tanking. His view is that as he is not swearing or abusing then his speech play is within the written rules. If he is at a social table where the rest of the players are joining in the banter and don't mind his chatter then I guess that is fine.

But IMO if he is setting out to annoy and distract other players to give himself an advantage, and someone at the table objects to this, then the floor should be able to intervene to shut him up. Being annoying and distracting (and excessive tanking) is not good for the game or necessarily fair to other players
Everything you say about Kassouf is accurate, but I think maybe you don't give enough credit to Benger.

I don't think he is "tilted" into doing anything, he is holding AA preflop. Maybe his restraint for so long, before finally firing back verbally was a poker equivalent of a rope-a-dope ?

Sure, Benger was frustrated at the nonsense he had endured, but he does something about it, firing back verbally and getting Kassouf to finally shut up and call ... which was kind of the point of his unsuccessful prior stone-face tactic. Give the guy credit, he adapted and got into Will's head for the play he wanted.
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:52 AM   #10
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Re: Civility at the poker table (catch all)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stupor View Post

But IMO if he is setting out to annoy and distract other players to give himself an advantage, and someone at the table objects to this, then the floor should be able to intervene to shut him up. Being annoying and distracting (and excessive tanking) is not good for the game or necessarily fair to other players
I would agree with this as it harkens back to my position:

Quote:
I think this is up to the person on the receiving end. If someone at the table feels that they are being insulted, belittled, or harassed then they should have the right to ask the person to stop taking to them and this needs to be enforced by the dealers and the floor. Starting with a warning at first, a timeout away from the table for the second offence and 86'ed for the third.
Then there is also the opportunity to reverse the mind screwing as Gzesh suggested, which is why leaving it to the discretion of the players is the way to go.
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:27 AM   #11
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Re: Civility at the poker table (catch all)

It is funny how lots still don't see how clever that "check your privileges" comment and acting was by Benger.

He had AA, but pretended to be on tilt, and so gave that angry "check your privileges" comment to induce action for his AA hand.

Kassouf fell for the fake anger, and called the player he mistakenly thought was tilted and overplaying a hand.
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:48 AM   #12
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Re: Civility at the poker table (catch all)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Why View Post
It is funny how lots still don't see how clever that "check your privileges" comment and acting was by Benger.

He had AA, but pretended to be on tilt, and so gave that angry "check your privileges" comment to induce action for his AA hand.

Kassouf fell for the fake anger, and called the player he mistakenly thought was tilted and overplaying a hand.
Not really so "clever" given he was getting a call anyway and the huge amount of heat he got (and still gets 2 years later). i imagine he regrets the situation every single day.

also the action happened slightly differently than that (I had misremembered as well), Kassouf never called, he ended up shoving over a Benger 3 (or 4?) bet. After Benger bet, Kassouf was then hollywooding for ages but IMO always going to shove. Benger sat quietly letting him tank/talk/hollywood for some minutes before the outburst during which Kassouf could have folded, called or raised. so hard to see how Benger planned the outburst to induce

IMO he had an emotional outburst after sustained aggravation, i think maybe you and gzesh put a bit too much faith in his acting skills. not easy to act that upset and emotional. One other thing, Benger and the rest of the table had more reason to see Kassouf as a villain than just the talking/tanking they saw. Vayo had also (wrongly) told them all that Kassouf made some lady cry so they were also worked up about that

Last edited by Stupor; 07-11-2018 at 01:56 AM. Reason: misremembered hand action
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Old 07-11-2018, 02:04 AM   #13
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Re: Civility at the poker table (catch all)

I don’t think Benger was faking his anger. He was genuinely and reasonably angry, and had been for hours, or longer.

Some just think he strategically chose to express that anger all in with aces and hoping his opponent would call. The other option is that he was fortunate to finally lose control of his emotions at the exact moment it was most beneficial for him to do so.

As for the OP’s suggestion, ultimately you can’t leave the decision of what is acceptable behavior up to a player. The player can complain to the floor, but it’s up to the floor to draw the line.
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Old 07-11-2018, 03:26 AM   #14
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Re: Civility at the poker table (catch all)

So you disagree that a player can request that an opponent stop talking to them?
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Old 07-11-2018, 06:07 AM   #15
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Re: Civility at the poker table (catch all)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stupor View Post
Not really so "clever" given he was getting a call anyway and the huge amount of heat he got (and still gets 2 years later). i imagine he regrets the situation every single day.

also the action happened slightly differently than that (I had misremembered as well), Kassouf never called, he ended up shoving over a Benger 3 (or 4?) bet. After Benger bet, Kassouf was then hollywooding for ages but IMO always going to shove. Benger sat quietly letting him tank/talk/hollywood for some minutes before the outburst during which Kassouf could have folded, called or raised. so hard to see how Benger planned the outburst to induce

IMO he had an emotional outburst after sustained aggravation, i think maybe you and gzesh put a bit too much faith in his acting skills. not easy to act that upset and emotional. One other thing, Benger and the rest of the table had more reason to see Kassouf as a villain than just the talking/tanking they saw. Vayo had also (wrongly) told them all that Kassouf made some lady cry so they were also worked up about that
I don't claim to know of course, but his control was very deliberate up to the point where it did not seem to be productive to keep silent once the onus was on Will to act ..... his outburst was no doubt genuine, not also had an effect on Kassouf apparently.

(I agree the choice phrase of "check your privilege" seemed odd, but it likely was adequate to the purpose .... he could have simply said "Loud Noises" repeatedly :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pdWAcK6Eh8
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:13 AM   #16
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Re: Civility at the poker table (catch all)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gzesh View Post
Everything you say about Kassouf is accurate, but I think maybe you don't give enough credit to Benger.

I don't think he is "tilted" into doing anything, he is holding AA preflop. Maybe his restraint for so long, before finally firing back verbally was a poker equivalent of a rope-a-dope ?

Sure, Benger was frustrated at the nonsense he had endured, but he does something about it, firing back verbally and getting Kassouf to finally shut up and call ... which was kind of the point of his unsuccessful prior stone-face tactic. Give the guy credit, he adapted and got into Will's head for the play he wanted.
Yep, Benger tilted Kassouf into shoving KK. Well played...

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Old 07-11-2018, 09:55 AM   #17
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Re: Civility at the poker table (catch all)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Askesis View Post
Yep, Benger tilted Kassouf into shoving KK. Well played...

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
granted, the money was going in regardless , as we know after the fact he had KK
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:17 AM   #18
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Re: Civility at the poker table (catch all)

Another SJW thread did in fact pop up. I am not a happy camper.
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:51 AM   #19
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Re: Civility at the poker table (catch all)

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Another SJW thread did in fact pop up. I am not a happy camper.
You are the mouth breather that called a player an SJW for suggesting forward motion with chips should be considered a call, so your awareness of what you are even talking about is suspect.

You also didn't realize how the UIGEA was passed, that it was a rider on a port security bill that was deviously put in by Bill Frist as an offering to his social conservative base in advance of what would be a failed 2008 GOP Presidential run. You seemed to think it was passed after Congressional debate on the topic - that never happened. You wanted so bad to blame Democrats for our lack of online poker, all the while oblivious to the fact that it is mostly the Sheldon Adelsons and Steve Wynns (close friends and supporters of Trump) along with social conservative nutbags who believe in Noah's Ark and people living to 900 years old, who are responsible for you and I being unable to play on PokerStars.


If you could drop your "liberals are the worst" mindset and see issues individually for what they are, you might have better informed opinions on some of them.
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:02 AM   #20
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Re: Civility at the poker table (catch all)

I am a liberal lol, but nice try.

I am just sick and tired of this whole overblown "THOU SHALL RESPECT EVERYONE OR FACE THE WHITE KNIGHT ARMADA" stuff. It's like every person feels the need to be offended and can't WAIT to let everyone hear about it. It has to stop or people who actually get offended will lose credibility.
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:25 AM   #21
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Re: Civility at the poker table (catch all)

I think people lose credibility when they get upset about people being offended in a thread where nobody has mentioned being offended about anything.

Is that your thing, calling people SJWs (oooh, cutting) any time anybody comments about anything? If you’re going to use a dumb term, at least take a minute to learn what it means.

Last edited by illdonk; 07-11-2018 at 11:30 AM.
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:37 AM   #22
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Re: Civility at the poker table (catch all)

Yeah I just love calling people SJWs.
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:43 AM   #23
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Re: Civility at the poker table (catch all)

You called somebody a SJW for saying that a forward motion was a call, right?

For a self-proclaimed liberal you seem to have a shaky grasp on the concept of “social justice.”
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:08 PM   #24
synth_floyd
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Re: Civility at the poker table (catch all)

Anyone bringing up anything SJW related in this thread is totally missing the point.
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:01 PM   #25
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Re: Civility at the poker table (catch all)

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcdog View Post
You are the mouth breather that called a player an SJW for suggesting forward motion with chips should be considered a call, so your awareness of what you are even talking about is suspect.

You also didn't realize how the UIGEA was passed, that it was a rider on a port security bill that was deviously put in by Bill Frist as an offering to his social conservative base in advance of what would be a failed 2008 GOP Presidential run. You seemed to think it was passed after Congressional debate on the topic - that never happened. You wanted so bad to blame Democrats for our lack of online poker, all the while oblivious to the fact that it is mostly the Sheldon Adelsons and Steve Wynns (close friends and supporters of Trump) along with social conservative nutbags who believe in Noah's Ark and people living to 900 years old, who are responsible for you and I being unable to play on PokerStars.


If you could drop your "liberals are the worst" mindset and see issues individually for what they are, you might have better informed opinions on some of them.
In between your digs at conservatives, you may have actually had a point or two, but failed miserably at the end of your post.

Online poker disappeared for one reason only, Barack Obama's DOJ, led by Eric Holder and executed by Preet Bharara, decided to indict the owners of the main online poker sites.

Nice revisionist history to try to claim Republicans killed it, that's a good one!
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