I suppose that's a fair position to take, though it seems a tad intellectually dishonest. That an opinion which varies somewhat from the majority shouldn't be offered as part of a discussion seems more like the stance of someone who prefers echo chambers. And that's a perfectly fine thing, if that's what you want. But echo chambers don't accomplish anything. They're there to make you feel better.

What's more important here is that neither I, nor Mr. Treesong have stated that it's somehow unpleasant or distressing. We've only stated that it's tiresome and seems like a waste of one's time, because it consists of hatred rehashed over 6 years.

If I accept this as true, and I do, and I accept that Ferguson's video garnered a wide reaction, which I do, then by your own admission the vast majority of the community is living in a very unhealthy way, which is Mr. Treesong and I's point.

Take the renewed anger post-video: No further harm was caused to anyone. The apology was bad, but even if it had been sincere, community admissions show the reaction wouldn't have been different.

The anger seems to stem from the fact that Ferguson exists. And you're free to hate him. And the rest of us are free think that hatred has moved from justified outrage to unhinged.

This puts you personally in the minority, in that you posit a scenario where you might accept an apology.

Forgiveness, however, is not for the offender. It is for you. Forgiveness is for you, so that whatever happened can stop consuming you.

It has nothing to do with absolution.

It has nothing to do with forgetting.

Ferguson deserves neither of these.

It has everything to do with not letting your life be taken over by a negative event (however bad it might have been).

And if people want to go out of their way to use that time and energy to harass him, so be it. But that seems like a sad use of one's time, which is what Mr. Treesong and I seem to both be saying.


Anyway, I hope you have a good day. I genuinely enjoy a lot of the stuff you create, and enjoyed exchanging ideas here.

Dutch Boyd and Poker Spot?

I appreciate your frustration, but this is a patently silly take. We have volumes of information, which at best paint Ferguson as a trailer park Madoff.

You can dislike someone and hold them accountable without it consuming your soul. There's a healthy middle ground, and I think most of us reside there.

I would actually be down for this for a variety of totally self-serving reasons.

Hitler escapes to Argentina to live out his days. Seven years later while walking to market to pick up some pigs feet for lunch he passes an escapee from the wartime Jewish ghettos of Hamburg.

I know it can't happen as Hitler didn't like pigs feet.....

dutch paid for his mistakes and seems open to discussing them. he was also quite young.

It was only a matter of time until some moran went to Hitler.

Dutch ran an inadequately capitalized poker site. When a processor, perhaps Pokerspot's only processor, stiffed it on the proceeds of credit card and other deposit transactions, the business went broke, leaving current player balances unfunded.

While that could happen without his site causing the failure of the processor to forward deposit proceeds, his capital was insufficient to cover the liability owed to the players.

His age had no relevance, his business was under-capitalized for the risk it took in crediting player deposits before receiving the proceeds.

(About that time in the industry, a number of processors reneged on such transactions, and/or dishonest depositors frequently charged back transactions underlying their deposits, but any poker business still should have kept adequate funds on hand as a matter of basic business honesty to cover the liability for chips issued to players for play.

I don't know what you mean Dutch has "paid for his mistakes". His business made some stupid decisions in relying on processor receivables as if they were gold, but it seems doubtful there was any crime committed by him or perhaps no personal liability even.

( FTP's dishonesty at its end, issuing chips for transactions it knowingly had no way to process/collect upon, was much worse than anything Pokerspot apparently ever did. THAT dishonesty should have resulted in indictments of all concerned, but it didn't, afaik.)

BTW FWIW I like Dutch Boyd, have met him, played with him, etc. and have no personal animus nor was impacted by the Poker Spot incident.

I'm merely pointing out that there are numerous people in the poker community who have checkered pasts etc. who are walking around today, but there seems to be a focused concentrated hate toward Chris Ferguson.

Is there any evidence that Ferguson is naturally wooden and comes across like that even when sincere?

I played with him a number of times in he mid-nineties, and he was perfectly natural and seemingly sincere in that setting: he’s not awkward at all in normal conversation.

Don't ever forget that he once refused to play the seven-deuce game in PAD.

Some things just can't be forgiven!

Whether it was related or not, his life took a severe downward turn in the years following. He also didn’t run off with money after the ship sunk. So in a way he was able to spiritually share the pain his ripped off customers felt.

Did Dutch ever pay anyone back? I think not.

I think Tuma's point (and I don't know what are the accurate facts) was that Dutch also did not make any money. I think Tuma's point was that money was stolen (stolen, right?) by a third party processor and Dutch didn't take the money. So, yes, perhaps poorly run company, not risk diversified enough company by Dutch, but not an undercapitalized company due to him taking too much money out of it; ended up being undercapitalized because Dutch mainly used a particular processor and that processor stole money and screwed him over.


I have no idea if the above facts are accurate or not. It just seems to me that Tuma's point seemed like the above or something like that is what happened in that case and given that is true, it is is significantly different from the Full Tilt situation.

But, again, I have no idea if the above accurately depicts what happened with Dutch Boyd. I have literally no knowledge of that situation. I don't even recall from memory what the name of his site was. I never played on it.




And, of course, Tuma can correct me if I understood his point incorrectly.

The site was called poker spot. Dutch promised to pay people back but never did, as far as I know. One difference is that Ferguson is rich and Dutch is not.

Comedy gold, Jerry!

you have to give it to Chris ... if his poker ability ever deteriorates, he'll always have his criminal skills to fall back on.

What criminal skills?

Are you saying he’s an expert murderer / hitman... or can crack safes

Or are you another boorish sheep

I think he was just making a joke.

I was a table away from Chris and Helmuth earlier in the 1500 PLO8 and was sad that no one gave him a hard time.

So walk over 1 table and give him a hard time if you care that much. Everyone expects someone else to do it, therefor it never/hardly ever, gets done.

I just wish some of the pros would table talk to him to throw him off his game..

"Hey Chris, is this buy-in of yours paid from those dividend payments the FTP Board paid itself out of the player funds?"

"Hey Chris, know any good payment processors? I think Chad Elie and Daniel Tzvetkoff could help process your winnings after the tournament?"

"Hey Chris, did you know that the WSOP mixes tournament prize money with its operational expenses? Terrible right?! Even when you place 4th, you aint cashing out... how would that feel? You would never let anything like that happen right..."

" Hey Chris, i hear 'the rest of the world players' want to thank you for your decision to keep taking their money after black friday to service the 250 million backlog you created.. cheers..

A 5-figure amount was paid right after his '03 WSOP run ended. The employee that paid out his winnings withheld the amount and said it was for someone owed from Poker Spot. He wrote about this in his memoir, which is where my knowledge of his business ends.