So the accounts with nearly identical stats through tens of thousands of hands, that's very convincing evidence that those are bot accounts using the same program. Are those accounts still active on WPN?

WELL SAID.

Glad a mod finally sees it this way too. Not sure why it was so difficult for people like Bobo & Thrash to understand the difference between rigtard conspiracy theories, and logic based suspicions. I am still skeptical(and bitter) of the way these complaints/suspicions were handled on the WPN forum.

2+2 itself played a key role in preventing people from discussing and exposing these problems sooner. This is not something I will forget and imo 2+2s reputation has been tarnished by the way they handled this situation(prior to a big name like Joey raising the alarm).

After my withdrawals are processed I will drop some bombs about WPN. Stay tuned.

Thanks for the heads-up

Ugh.

While I obviously share some bitterness about this subject, I certainly don't agree with blaming 2+2 or Bobo. (This doesn't mean that I blame Thrash, rather I simply don't know enough about him to have an informed opinion.)

The real blame, imo, is on the entire poker playing community. I wanted to write American poker playing community, but it's not like ROW players have some wonderful place to play these days. As a community we can't even agree on what the real problems are, much less agree on a solution to those problems. We, myself included, always complain about the sites looking out for their own short term best interests. While at the same time we fight tooth and nail to protect our own personal short term best interests. Nothing will change, until we change, and we're likely never going to change.

Okay. Don't forget Amnesia.

Plo0wned can I have my money back that I have lost to you ty

I don't know enough to comment on your 1st paragraph but I can say with certainty that your 2nd paragraph is spot on.

Oh really? You have proof of this.

Twoplustwo has always taken the high road on disreputable situations and tries very hard to let the free speech discussion flow so that the real facts have the greatest chance of being realized and understood. There are many examples of this on the forum. This is not a management driven forum. It is member driven forum that grants significant latitude to its members' thoughts and opinions.

Don't think the mucked cards argument is very valid. It's probably derived from the rule that you can muck cards IRL in casino if you don't win. Boss Network had the mucked cards thing for years as well. AFAIK Svenska Spel still uses that software.

ACR's software isn't exactly the pinnacle of the industry, so I'm guessing fixing issues like that isn't their top priorities.

(Games seem to be running atm, but lobby is broken=doesn't refresh.)

Appreciate you guys get put in hard spots, but yes there have been examples where the ongoing need for mods to suppress garbage has led to mods also suppressing discussion where many members felt it should continue. Don't be so sensitive about it.

And ironically I could provide evidence (oh, but you're demanding proof rather than Views or Gossip now?) but the more compelling it is the more likely my post will be deleted as a derail and I'll be told to take it to the moderation complaint forum instead.

Except that isn't the rule. You can't just muck your cards, unless you're allowed. If we're in a pot at showdown and I want to see your cards, then your cards will be shown. It's my option, not yours. What WPN does is exactly backwards of this rule, making it your option, not mine.

There is one thing that is certain is for rigged, (unless i'm completely off base here but my gut tells me i'm not).

And that's their blackjack/slot tournaments they run, here are the winners from the most recent blackjack tournament they ran. (notice how most of the top ten names are a first name, followed by a capital letter, followed by a number). If this isn't evidence of house bots I don't know what is.

Position Name Chip Count Prize

1 AnnM47 43023 420 cash
2 TracyM38 31500.50 250 cash
3 AndrewY12 31500 150 cash
4 KristenE2 25702.50 100 cash
5 pdf 23920 80 cash (lets assume for sure this guy is a real person and assumed to luckbox these bots/superusers)
6 CharlieH2 20519.50 75 casino bonus
7 BruceC40 12018 50 casino bonus
8 BlairS9 9100 25 Casino Bonus
9 CraigS139 2425 entry to weekend tourney
10 Doesn't show no 10's name

Point is 9 out of the top 10 have the same first name with a capital starting at first name followed by a capital letter and two numbers, these are either colluders or house bots, these occur in all the multi blackjack mtts, i forwarded it to papi recently but I guess he is getting on with life.

If someone can provide screenshots that could help, just trying to help the community and rid these evil bastards.

Is it even possible to generate a positive expectation in a raked slot tournament via multi-accounting, collusion or botting?

It is funny people think WPN really gets that many ddos attacks

The big bad mafia family doesn't skeer the attackers

Hmm a patch that went wrong now I read for days and days about ddos attacks on wpn

same story for life with these idiots

It has been almost a decade of the same bullsheeet

Probably because I had, and have, no such difficulty.

Nope. But if you'd like to continue this discussion, perhaps you could respond to my reply to your last bunch of unfounded accusations about this in ATF thread about WPN advertising, where it belongs.

Agreed - it absolutely is a piece of evidence.

While it is useful evidence, it's far from the best we can possibly have.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for his evidence, or ask questions about his beliefs. And I sure haven't seen anyone suggesting WPN needs to be praised. As for proving things that can't be proven, I don't know that I agree. Why is it unprovable? There's been very little effort, at least publicly, to gather evidence from multiple posters. That's how it happened with Cereus - players started pooling their stats and finding abnormal winrates. Those winrates were then shown as being extremely far from the norm, and they were off to the races.

And to be clear, I'm not putting the burden of that on Joey. If others have similar concerns, they could lead the charge on this.

Sure, "mountains of incontrovertible evidence" is rarely possible. But that doesn't mean that speculation shouldn't be challenged. That's how we get to the bottom of things.

No question that happens from time to time. But what I think you're missing is that this particular accusation was that 2+2 was intentionally suppressing/deleting critical posts to serve their financial interests - an accusation that is absolutely false.

Cereus superuser existence was definitively proven when UB provided millions of hand histories showing all of the hole cards. Something that drastically changed their current environment. Prior to that all they had proven was an abnormal win rate existed, which isn't the same as proving a superuser exists (eg: DERB). But this was proven by pooling millions of hand histories, ignoring that this information pooling is a tos violation...

For American players, today's current environment consists essentially of 3 places to play: WPN, Bovada, and Global.

Global provides no hand histories at all. Pooling information is impossible (ok, technically it's not impossible, but it certainly requires some rather serious violations of tos to obtain the information).

Bovada provides excellent hand histories, assuming you have all the software to use them. Except they don't provide player names. So good luck using all of your virtually worthless pooled information.

WPN provides a hand history. Except it will only provide you with the hole cards of your opponent in those instances where your opponent went to showdown and happened to have the best hand. Which is enough to prove that your opponent wins when he has the best hand, but it's very little proof of anything else.

It would require many times more WPN hand histories to get us to the same state that we were at with Cereus, prior to UB providing those wonderful hand histories to definitively prove a superuser exists. And a similar number of hands played by the reg's, against the superuser would be required to prove anything with your abnormal win rate theory.

This means first that, today's superuser would have to be just as stupid as the Cereus superuser and play hundreds of thousands, if not millions of hands with the same group of reg's, without ever changing his account name. Then, all of those regulars would have to be willing to play, at minimum, tens of thousands of hands each, with that superuser. Then all of those reg's would need to pool all of their information, thereby sharing their own strategies directly with their opponents. At which time, they'd all be broke, and still likely wouldn't have definitively proven anything beyond plausible suspicion.

It's a completely different poker world today, compared to the days of the Cereus superuser. Win rates today are a tiny fraction of what they were in 2009. Player pools are a tiny fraction of what they were in 2009. Reg to rec ratio's are a tiny fraction of what they were in 2009. Sharing information today has a much higher relative cost than in 2009. Providing the hand histories that would be enough proof of evidence to make suspicions plausible would cost a modern player more than his annual salary, if not his entire career as a WPN reg. No one gives up their strategies today, except the few who decide to retire, and sell those strategies for one final profit from the poker community.

Without a drastic change in the current environment, similar to what happened with Cereus, nothing will ever be proven. I don't ever expect that anyone will receive hand histories like were provided by UB. If anything is ever proven today, it will be because the superuser himself provides the information, either intentionally to prove how smart he is, or somehow unintentionally when someone else discovers him irl. Until then, nothing will be proven beyond plausible suspicion. (Edit: This paragraph was poorly written, it is of course only my opinion, it wasn't meant to imply that it's undeniable fact.)

Which brings me back to my original point, which was that imo, the evidence for plausible suspicion has already been provided when someone like Joe Ingram states that in his opinion, he plays against superusers. (Edit: And I should have written in the other post that this is the best evidence we can possibly expect as opposed to have.)

I think you're the one with trouble defining evidence. These are allegations, hopefully based on some kind of evidence along with intuition, but allegations themselves are not evidence.

I have independently confirmed this by thinking about it.

Ffs, everything always turns into semantics here. Since we're obviously going to be doing this as if it were a court of law. I'd like to introduce Joe Ingram's statements as expert opinion, your honor.

Ftr, I am not a lawyer, and I don't care what the difference might be in the legal definitions of "expert opinion" and "evidence", nor the difference between "expert opinion" and "allegation". My point would simply remain that proof is not the same as evidence, nor expert opinion. But for all reasonable intents and purposes, the opinion of an expert, like Joe, is evidence.

Nope I'm not missing it, because you're wrong, it's not there. Maybe he believes that, and maybe he's even said that elsewhere - but nowhere in this forum for the last 3 weeks at a minimum. That's you being defensive. Here's the exact quote of "this particular accusation" (bold added):

That opinion can be held without believing the mods were biased by 2p2's financial motivation. And from what I'm reading it seems like a lot of posters agree with his view - so maybe mods should learn from that rather than just reject what he's saying.

That requires a somewhat generous interpretation of his post IMO, but if you are one to give the benefit of the doubt (as I usually am as well), I can see how you might believe that. My interpretation was based not just on that post, but on his work in the WPN thread in ATF, as well as from knowledge of his past work. And I think his latest post, in yet another forum, gives more than ample support to my position:

That's just a portion of his post, but I don't think I've lost any context - feel free to click on the arrows by his name in the quote if you'd like to read the whole thing.

Anyway, this is something of a sidebar that really belongs in the ATF thread, so I'm going to try not to argue the point with you any more if you still aren't seeing what I am. He's been on the same theme for a couple of months now.

Is this site playable? Been taking some time off and living in Ga now. Best sites to play on?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Literally not even playable right now and barely playable for the last 5 days or so. They's been having "DDOS" attacks since the software update. I had 1 day that I could actually get some hands in during this time.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...-18-a-1238038/