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Old 02-04-2018, 01:47 PM   #51
Stealy Man
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Re: Chicago Joey accuses WPN (ACR) of massive botting and cheating, beware?

Weird... Just recently had to send ACR all of those documents. Was my first time requesting a withdrawal on their site as I haven't played there much.

Is this done at random for each player?

Like it was mentioned above... major security flaw if some are being forced to send in this documentation and others don't have to send a thing.

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I deposited and withdrew several times via Bitcoin in the last few months and never sent them anything
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Old 02-04-2018, 01:49 PM   #52
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Re: Chicago Joey accuses WPN (ACR) of massive botting and cheating, beware?

The sick part is some of the bot owners are doing so well that THEY are already chilling in houses in Thailand.

That's a problem... need's to be addressed.


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Originally Posted by Crowe Capital View Post
I personally am not hopeful that the grey market US-facing sites will ever seriously deal with bots. From a purely business perspective they have no incentive to.

A fully above-board site like Pokerstars has an incentive to maximize profits over the long run. Turning a blind eye to bots increases short term profits during a few year period, but in the long run (5-10+ years) will inevitably kill the games. Pokerstars wants to still be making money 10 years from now, so they invest in security to deal with bots.

For sites like WPN, they know that there's very little chance they'll be around 5-10 years from now, at least as a major site. Every time a high population U.S. state regulates poker, that market is gone. If a gigantic state like CA/NY did so, that would be a huge blow, and with budget issues in both of those states its a real possibility. Not to mention the ever-looming threat of a DOJ crackdown.

So even if there were a magical button they could press that would ban all bots, they would have no incentive to press it and drastically reduce their cash game traffic today, even if it would lead to healthier traffic after a few years of rebuilding.

But there isn't a magical button they could press. Successfully identifying bots/colluders involves a lot of manpower and cutting edge programming to stay one step ahead of the bots and avoid banning honest regs who just play a predictable, high volume style. That's a lot of money which WPN has no incentive to spend - per above they probably wouldn't even crack down if there were a magic button.

So honestly the only real solution to this problem is large scale regulated interstate U.S. online poker, with most of the high population states on board. Only then will above board corporations (I.E. Stars and some day Run It Once) have an economic incentive to invest in security to protect the long-term health of the games for U.S. players.

By then, WPN's owners will be chilling at a sick house in Thailand and won't give a damn.
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Old 02-04-2018, 01:51 PM   #53
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Re: Chicago Joey accuses WPN (ACR) of massive botting and cheating, beware?

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Originally Posted by Stealy Man View Post
Weird... Just recently had to send ACR all of those documents. Was my first time requesting a withdrawal on their site as I haven't played there much.

Is this done at random for each player?

Like it was mentioned above... major security flaw if some are being forced to send in this documentation and others don't have to send a thing.
It is supposed to be done for every player that withdrawals, but looks like it isn't for people who deposited via BTC, which is absolutely ridiculous if that is the case.
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Old 02-04-2018, 01:55 PM   #54
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Re: Chicago Joey accuses WPN (ACR) of massive botting and cheating, beware?

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Originally Posted by fishfood69er View Post
i mean i agree with joey i thought acr had bots for years. i also think ignition / bovada superuses the fast fold games on zone poker . do i have any proof ? no. but i can think it lol.
Ya but on WPN we can use tracking programs and analyze players like in this thread. So we do have some kind of proof. **** any site that doesn't allow tracking, that's the only way to find out about superusers/bots/colluders unless they are total idiots about it.



This is only the PLO bot thread, there is a NL bot and sng bot thread too in the WPN subforum.
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...takes-1695993/



Quote:
Originally Posted by shutdown View Post
These are two different eastern european accounts with very suspect, similar stats.


Thought i shouldn't post usernames since it wouldn't be fair to post alot of stats if they were somehow legit.

hands are filtered from 4-6 handed w/ around 50k hands each

Hud:




General stats:










Cbet:









i'm sure there are a bunch of filters and other stats that would be better to use but im not really sure what to look up there.


basically these guys play in shifts. over this hand sample there is only 32 hands of theirs that were played at the same table, which is obviously very surprising since all of these hands were at the same stake (they don't move up or down) and there is just not alot of active tables at any given time to avoid someone like that.



edit: also found one more guy in my database that i somehow missed.
all stats are the same as the two above, and again this 3rd guy has only ~60 hands played with the above accounts. 8 hour workshifts







Quote:
Originally Posted by shutdown View Post
theyve got some reasonable winrates for such a highly raked game
Quote:
Originally Posted by clfst17 View Post
Winning_TD, any comment on this? The 3 players above are playing identically, never timing down, and crushing the games (post-rake) yet they're mysteriously not moving up in stakes.

Last edited by Sir Huntington; 02-04-2018 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 02-04-2018, 02:08 PM   #55
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Re: Chicago Joey accuses WPN (ACR) of massive botting and cheating, beware?

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Originally Posted by docherty91 View Post
888 is actually most of the US Market... WSOP is 888 software and a lot of NJ plays with 888 software
I'm pretty sure DE and NV play on that same software. They have 1 tiny site with horrific looking software and no player pool.
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Old 02-04-2018, 02:28 PM   #56
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Re: Chicago Joey accuses WPN (ACR) of massive botting and cheating, beware?

Realistically how much are these bots making (assuming they're bots)? The above result lists $8k after 600k+ hands? That's not very much. I assume none of these bots are in higher limit games.

As an aside I agree that the human players should be able to play games without bots, I'm just curious how successful the programs are.

Last edited by jambony; 02-04-2018 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 02-04-2018, 02:45 PM   #57
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Re: Chicago Joey accuses WPN (ACR) of massive botting and cheating, beware?

Well that's only 3 bots and they are crushing. I expected like 1-3 bb, their winrates are insane if they are bots. I always heard bots weren't that good so this is alarming. Hopefully the amount of bots are a bit exaggerated but you never know when their are rumors flying around. I'd like to see more people bringing up stats of suspected bots as there are plenty of people on the site playing a million hands/half a million hands a year on WPN so should be easy if there are that many of them.
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Old 02-04-2018, 03:13 PM   #58
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Re: Chicago Joey accuses WPN (ACR) of massive botting and cheating, beware?

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Originally Posted by jambony View Post
Realistically how much are these bots making (assuming they're bots)? The above result lists $8k after 600k+ hands? That's not very much. I assume none of these bots are in higher limit games.

As an aside I agree that the human players should be able to play games without bots, I'm just curious how successful the programs are.
WPN offers what amounts to something like 40-50% rakeback or more if I recall correctly for high volume players in their VIP program. In addition, there is a weekly rake race which awards something like $500-$2000/week to the highest volume players. So, the rakeback/rake race is where the real money is at and as such I imagine the goal of most bots is to break even in bb/100. Any advanced bot shenanigans that can actually pull off a positive bb/100 winrate is just gravy.

The rakeback % and $ amounts above are just rough memory from when I used to play on the site. May not be exact, but its in the neighborhood - point is you can make boatloads of money through rakeback on WPN. In fact this is what attracts a large number of honest regs to the site who are high volume rakeback grinders with low/breakeven winrates. Its like back in the day where you had tons of players grinding out Supernova Elite on Stars, making little/no money or even losing a small amount of money at the tables but collecting the $100k+ rakeback each year which they lived on.

Edit to add - to put a $ amount to answer your question, we're easily talking thousands, perhaps even five figures for the most ambitious botters in rakeback/rake race per month for these bots.

Last edited by Crowe Capital; 02-04-2018 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 02-04-2018, 03:26 PM   #59
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Re: Chicago Joey accuses WPN (ACR) of massive botting and cheating, beware?

Just checked and you can get up to 71% effective RB if you're a 2nd year 5 star general, 65.5% RB if you're 1st year. The rake race tops out at $2500, so just grinding hands leads to a ton of money.
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Old 02-04-2018, 03:31 PM   #60
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Re: Chicago Joey accuses WPN (ACR) of massive botting and cheating, beware?

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Just checked and you can get up to 71% effective RB if you're a 2nd year 5 star general, 65.5% RB if you're 1st year. The rake race tops out at $2500, so just grinding hands leads to a ton of money.
And this is why WPN is so much more bot infested than Ignition. Both sites have laughable security, and Ignition even has the added benefit for bots of anonymous tables so that human players can't track them over time and attempt to out them. However, Ignition's effectively zero rakeback and table cap (2 table zoom / 4 ring) means that today's typical breakeven-ish entry to mid level bots can't make reasonable money on the site. You'd have to be on the cutting edge of bespoke bot design to make enough money to be worth your time on Ignition. I'm sure there are some profitable bots on Ignition, but its likely not a ridiculous percentage of the player base as on WPN.
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Old 02-04-2018, 03:38 PM   #61
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Re: Chicago Joey accuses WPN (ACR) of massive botting and cheating, beware?

I know it could simply be users trolling, but I see a lot of usernames along the lines of "Susie56", "HotMama", etc. etc. (feminine names), and I click on them, and it says "Gender: Male" in the details. Doesn't really say anything about cheating, but I always found it quite odd.
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Old 02-04-2018, 03:40 PM   #62
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Re: Chicago Joey accuses WPN (ACR) of massive botting and cheating, beware?

This story is gaining momentum.
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Old 02-04-2018, 03:40 PM   #63
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Re: Chicago Joey accuses WPN (ACR) of massive botting and cheating, beware?

In Joey's video he uses the word "superuser" at least twice. I'm curious if he has any evidence to support this claim.

Botting and to a much lesser extent collusion on ACR seem to be a certainty, it's really just a question of how big the problem is. If there's one or more superuser account on the site that would be more troubling and surprising to me.

Last edited by PuckFokerGo; 02-04-2018 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 02-04-2018, 03:53 PM   #64
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Re: Chicago Joey accuses WPN (ACR) of massive botting and cheating, beware?

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Originally Posted by PuckFokerGo View Post
In Joey's video he uses the word "superuser" at least twice. I'm curious if he has any evidence to support this claim.

Botting and collusion on ACR seems to be a certainty, it's really just a question of how many. If there's one or more superuser account on the site that would be more troubling and surprising to me.
This is definitely his least compelling argument since as you mentioned he doesn't have any concrete evidence.

The way I understand his argument is that even when good regulars play each other, they're not clairvoyant - they'll both make bluffcatches with appropriate combos and get shown the nuts sometimes. I.E. you call with the 2nd nut flush with 3 to the suit in your hand and get shown the nut flush. You made a good call but got unlucky this time.

Joey claims to never see this happen to the suspected super users. The one exception he notes is when they are involved in a hand against each other - they might make this type of call to show the humans at the table that they are normal players who make calls that don't work out sometimes, but in reality since they're both in on it together no one actually won or lost money.

I'm not saying I support this argument - I'm going to need to see more evidence - but I just tried to lay it out as I understood it.
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Old 02-04-2018, 03:53 PM   #65
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Re: Chicago Joey accuses WPN (ACR) of massive botting and cheating, beware?

Also the fact that Joey mentioned making the video and airing his suspicions to " Phil " and it took the guy SIX DAYS to get back with him.

Just goes to show how much he seems to give a crap about all of this.

Just on that basis alone, I would never play there. I do not need any more proof, his silence or lack of urgency, speaks volumes to me.
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Old 02-04-2018, 03:54 PM   #66
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Re: Chicago Joey accuses WPN (ACR) of massive botting and cheating, beware?

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Originally Posted by clfst17 View Post
Many thanks to Chicago Joey for making the video.

This is a necessary thread imo. WPN reps mocking and then blatantly ignoring posts about bots in their own sub-forum calls for a more public shaming.
LOL. Yeah, like public shaming will turn dark online poker around. Another site will easily take its place for a time until it does the same thing again to its players whether that is rampant botting, cheating or embezzling straight up of players' funds. What? You thought ILLEGAL, OFFSHORE sites that don't abide under US law have your best interests at heart? After all this time?

Give me a break. Any US players playing on any these sites by NOW should expect any and all risk when investing their time and money on them.

Last edited by HurtLocker; 02-04-2018 at 03:59 PM.
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Old 02-04-2018, 04:01 PM   #67
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Re: Chicago Joey accuses WPN (ACR) of massive botting and cheating, beware?

Acr does t give 2 ****s as I have said for a long time.

I emailed them a long time ago and said I would openly collide and use multiple names to cheat and told them my own accounts. They didn’t care lol.

Hands down one of the shadiest online sites offered besides BOL.

Scumbags
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Old 02-04-2018, 04:01 PM   #68
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Re: Chicago Joey accuses WPN (ACR) of massive botting and cheating, beware?

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Originally Posted by H0RUS View Post
If im not mistaken, if someone only deposits via bitcoin they can withdraw via bitcoin without id/utility bill documents.

So basically someone with alot of bitcoin can run x amount of latops on vpns and run a collusion ring from their living room without having to forge documents.
gonna post this one more time, cuz wtf.

Claims of superusers and massive bot rings aside...

Assuming above is true, then what person in their right mind would play on a site with this fatal security flaw.
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Old 02-04-2018, 04:04 PM   #69
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Re: Chicago Joey accuses WPN (ACR) of massive botting and cheating, beware?

I can't speak on the exact players, but in principal Joey is 100% correct about what's going on.

As he said there's various forms of cheating. Ranging from colluding, full blown automation, and then semi auto where there's various levels of advisors, hand scrapers, game state scrapers.

While the issues seem to be rampant on ACR, even PS has this going on. The amount of regs that have been banned (format depending) is staggering. And while that's made a dent the smarter and more sophisticated ones live on.

I honestly don't know what can be done about it either. Sites are going to have to get really smart to stop it.
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Old 02-04-2018, 04:10 PM   #70
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Re: Chicago Joey accuses WPN (ACR) of massive botting and cheating, beware?

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Originally Posted by PTLou View Post
gonna post this one more time, cuz wtf.

Claims of superusers and massive bot rings aside...

Assuming above is true, then what person in their right mind would play on a site with this fatal security flaw.
All of that is true except for the multiple laptops part. You could actually do it all on one PC with software.
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Old 02-04-2018, 04:12 PM   #71
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Re: Chicago Joey accuses WPN (ACR) of massive botting and cheating, beware?

Thanks for doing the video Joey. Anyone who thinks this isn’t happening in all these ways, and at all different stakes and formats is delusional. Especially on an site that is running illegally. It’s a total smash a grab.
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Old 02-04-2018, 04:30 PM   #72
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Re: Chicago Joey accuses WPN (ACR) of massive botting and cheating, beware?

Wow, hAm, I hardly know where to start.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hAmThEkIlLeR View Post
From the link you removed:

"Most of casinos that we support at the moment, are loyal towards bots"


I guess I don't read very well, because I assume that when a botmaker lists a particular site as "loyal towards bots,"
Leaving aside for the moment the fact that that quote isn't on the page you linked (I assume it's from somewhere else on the site), saying that "most of casinos we support are loyal towards bots", is not listing "a particular site". So, combined with your earlier post, no, it seems you really do not read well.

But that's not even the most important point.

Going back to your earlier post, you linked to a specific page, and said this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hAmThEkIlLeR View Post
Would the fact that bot makers advertise the fact that ACR supports them satisfy you?
That page said nothing of the sort. And it would appear that you're trying to find something elsewhere on their site to make it seem like your earlier post was correct. Of course, as I've already shown, it doesn't support your original statement, and it's not on the page you linked to.

I'm sorry to have offended you by suggesting you don't read well, but now that you've confirmed that your post was worded the way you intended, I think it's the most generous light I can put your post in. Because if you did read and comprehend everything you linked to and are quoting, the only possibility remaining is that you are intentionally misleading people.

I only come back to this because I think the distinction between what you said and what was on that site are extremely important. It's clear that many people feel that WPN has a big botting problem, which is obviously a serious issue for them. But a botting site saying WPN specifically supports their bot has a very specific meaning, and one that most people would find exponentially more serious, so it's not a statement that should be made lightly.

I'll try not to come back to this again, as I don't want to derail this thread.

Edit to add: If you find anything on the site that specifically says that WPN supports their bot, I think that would be extremely important information, and I'd encourage you to post a screenshot. I don't have some kind of agenda against getting information out there, I just want to make sure what's being shared is accurate.
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Old 02-04-2018, 05:41 PM   #73
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Re: Chicago Joey accuses WPN (ACR) of massive botting and cheating, beware?

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i've made a bunch of withdrawals via BTC on both ACR and True and I haven't been asked to send them anything at all to verify
True for me on both skins too.
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Old 02-04-2018, 05:54 PM   #74
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Re: Chicago Joey accuses WPN (ACR) of massive botting and cheating, beware?

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Old 02-04-2018, 07:05 PM   #75
hAmThEkIlLeR
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Re: Chicago Joey accuses WPN (ACR) of massive botting and cheating, beware?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
Because if you did read and comprehend everything you linked to and are quoting, the only possibility remaining is that you are intentionally misleading people.

Bobo, I’ll take your kind words of contrition and generosity at face value and not read this statement as a juvenile insult in regard to a matter that is indeed extremely serious.

I originally posted the earlier link as evidence of bots on the site, and I was treated to your conscientious and thoughtful reply. I think we differ in how “support” is defined.

I’ll grant that I doubt you can call up ACR customer service and receive tips on what to do if you’re having problems with your bot ring. But the bot site I linked does list ACR as being “loyal” to botters. That’s not a statement coming from ACR, that’s what the site says. Again, I will allow that the site does not say verbatim that ACR supports their product.


D1G1TALFOX has helpfully provided a screenshot of the statement I was "trying" to find.


Where I disagree with you is I believe enabling=support. A consistent lack of action against bots and bot rings in light of a preponderance of statistical evidence of suspect behavior implies enabling. The fact that a paid ACR rep on this very site has advised users on strategy against bots on ACR strongly implies enabling, at least to my simple mind.

But since you have regularly stated I can’t understand what I read, maybe you can explain your view on the matter, since from my standpoint, allowing this cheating to continue despite hundreds of posts from concerned users, as well as posts from actual cheaters themselves, statistical data which strongly implies cheating, and explicit admission on behalf of an actual WPN employee constitute tacit support of bot users.


If you have any questions as to the point I am attempting to make, or still feel misled, please ask.

Last edited by hAmThEkIlLeR; 02-04-2018 at 07:09 PM. Reason: mentioned user who posted screenshot
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