Weird... Just recently had to send ACR all of those documents. Was my first time requesting a withdrawal on their site as I haven't played there much.

Is this done at random for each player?

Like it was mentioned above... major security flaw if some are being forced to send in this documentation and others don't have to send a thing.

The sick part is some of the bot owners are doing so well that THEY are already chilling in houses in Thailand.

That's a problem... need's to be addressed.

It is supposed to be done for every player that withdrawals, but looks like it isn't for people who deposited via BTC, which is absolutely ridiculous if that is the case.

Ya but on WPN we can use tracking programs and analyze players like in this thread. So we do have some kind of proof. **** any site that doesn't allow tracking, that's the only way to find out about superusers/bots/colluders unless they are total idiots about it.



This is only the PLO bot thread, there is a NL bot and sng bot thread too in the WPN subforum.
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...takes-1695993/

I'm pretty sure DE and NV play on that same software. They have 1 tiny site with horrific looking software and no player pool.

Realistically how much are these bots making (assuming they're bots)? The above result lists $8k after 600k+ hands? That's not very much. I assume none of these bots are in higher limit games.

As an aside I agree that the human players should be able to play games without bots, I'm just curious how successful the programs are.

Well that's only 3 bots and they are crushing. I expected like 1-3 bb, their winrates are insane if they are bots. I always heard bots weren't that good so this is alarming. Hopefully the amount of bots are a bit exaggerated but you never know when their are rumors flying around. I'd like to see more people bringing up stats of suspected bots as there are plenty of people on the site playing a million hands/half a million hands a year on WPN so should be easy if there are that many of them.

WPN offers what amounts to something like 40-50% rakeback or more if I recall correctly for high volume players in their VIP program. In addition, there is a weekly rake race which awards something like $500-$2000/week to the highest volume players. So, the rakeback/rake race is where the real money is at and as such I imagine the goal of most bots is to break even in bb/100. Any advanced bot shenanigans that can actually pull off a positive bb/100 winrate is just gravy.

The rakeback % and $ amounts above are just rough memory from when I used to play on the site. May not be exact, but its in the neighborhood - point is you can make boatloads of money through rakeback on WPN. In fact this is what attracts a large number of honest regs to the site who are high volume rakeback grinders with low/breakeven winrates. Its like back in the day where you had tons of players grinding out Supernova Elite on Stars, making little/no money or even losing a small amount of money at the tables but collecting the $100k+ rakeback each year which they lived on.

Edit to add - to put a $ amount to answer your question, we're easily talking thousands, perhaps even five figures for the most ambitious botters in rakeback/rake race per month for these bots.

Just checked and you can get up to 71% effective RB if you're a 2nd year 5 star general, 65.5% RB if you're 1st year. The rake race tops out at $2500, so just grinding hands leads to a ton of money.

And this is why WPN is so much more bot infested than Ignition. Both sites have laughable security, and Ignition even has the added benefit for bots of anonymous tables so that human players can't track them over time and attempt to out them. However, Ignition's effectively zero rakeback and table cap (2 table zoom / 4 ring) means that today's typical breakeven-ish entry to mid level bots can't make reasonable money on the site. You'd have to be on the cutting edge of bespoke bot design to make enough money to be worth your time on Ignition. I'm sure there are some profitable bots on Ignition, but its likely not a ridiculous percentage of the player base as on WPN.

I know it could simply be users trolling, but I see a lot of usernames along the lines of "Susie56", "HotMama", etc. etc. (feminine names), and I click on them, and it says "Gender: Male" in the details. Doesn't really say anything about cheating, but I always found it quite odd.

This story is gaining momentum.

In Joey's video he uses the word "superuser" at least twice. I'm curious if he has any evidence to support this claim.

Botting and to a much lesser extent collusion on ACR seem to be a certainty, it's really just a question of how big the problem is. If there's one or more superuser account on the site that would be more troubling and surprising to me.

This is definitely his least compelling argument since as you mentioned he doesn't have any concrete evidence.

The way I understand his argument is that even when good regulars play each other, they're not clairvoyant - they'll both make bluffcatches with appropriate combos and get shown the nuts sometimes. I.E. you call with the 2nd nut flush with 3 to the suit in your hand and get shown the nut flush. You made a good call but got unlucky this time.

Joey claims to never see this happen to the suspected super users. The one exception he notes is when they are involved in a hand against each other - they might make this type of call to show the humans at the table that they are normal players who make calls that don't work out sometimes, but in reality since they're both in on it together no one actually won or lost money.

I'm not saying I support this argument - I'm going to need to see more evidence - but I just tried to lay it out as I understood it.

Also the fact that Joey mentioned making the video and airing his suspicions to " Phil " and it took the guy SIX DAYS to get back with him.

Just goes to show how much he seems to give a crap about all of this.

Just on that basis alone, I would never play there. I do not need any more proof, his silence or lack of urgency, speaks volumes to me.

LOL. Yeah, like public shaming will turn dark online poker around. Another site will easily take its place for a time until it does the same thing again to its players whether that is rampant botting, cheating or embezzling straight up of players' funds. What? You thought ILLEGAL, OFFSHORE sites that don't abide under US law have your best interests at heart? After all this time?

Give me a break. Any US players playing on any these sites by NOW should expect any and all risk when investing their time and money on them.

Acr does t give 2 ****s as I have said for a long time.

I emailed them a long time ago and said I would openly collide and use multiple names to cheat and told them my own accounts. They didn’t care lol.

Hands down one of the shadiest online sites offered besides BOL.

Scumbags

gonna post this one more time, cuz wtf.

Claims of superusers and massive bot rings aside...

Assuming above is true, then what person in their right mind would play on a site with this fatal security flaw.

I can't speak on the exact players, but in principal Joey is 100% correct about what's going on.

As he said there's various forms of cheating. Ranging from colluding, full blown automation, and then semi auto where there's various levels of advisors, hand scrapers, game state scrapers.

While the issues seem to be rampant on ACR, even PS has this going on. The amount of regs that have been banned (format depending) is staggering. And while that's made a dent the smarter and more sophisticated ones live on.

I honestly don't know what can be done about it either. Sites are going to have to get really smart to stop it.

All of that is true except for the multiple laptops part. You could actually do it all on one PC with software.

Thanks for doing the video Joey. Anyone who thinks this isn’t happening in all these ways, and at all different stakes and formats is delusional. Especially on an site that is running illegally. It’s a total smash a grab.

Wow, hAm, I hardly know where to start.

Leaving aside for the moment the fact that that quote isn't on the page you linked (I assume it's from somewhere else on the site), saying that "most of casinos we support are loyal towards bots", is not listing "a particular site". So, combined with your earlier post, no, it seems you really do not read well.

But that's not even the most important point.

Going back to your earlier post, you linked to a specific page, and said this:

That page said nothing of the sort. And it would appear that you're trying to find something elsewhere on their site to make it seem like your earlier post was correct. Of course, as I've already shown, it doesn't support your original statement, and it's not on the page you linked to.

I'm sorry to have offended you by suggesting you don't read well, but now that you've confirmed that your post was worded the way you intended, I think it's the most generous light I can put your post in. Because if you did read and comprehend everything you linked to and are quoting, the only possibility remaining is that you are intentionally misleading people.

I only come back to this because I think the distinction between what you said and what was on that site are extremely important. It's clear that many people feel that WPN has a big botting problem, which is obviously a serious issue for them. But a botting site saying WPN specifically supports their bot has a very specific meaning, and one that most people would find exponentially more serious, so it's not a statement that should be made lightly.

I'll try not to come back to this again, as I don't want to derail this thread.

Edit to add: If you find anything on the site that specifically says that WPN supports their bot, I think that would be extremely important information, and I'd encourage you to post a screenshot. I don't have some kind of agenda against getting information out there, I just want to make sure what's being shared is accurate.

True for me on both skins too.

Bobo, I’ll take your kind words of contrition and generosity at face value and not read this statement as a juvenile insult in regard to a matter that is indeed extremely serious.

I originally posted the earlier link as evidence of bots on the site, and I was treated to your conscientious and thoughtful reply. I think we differ in how “support” is defined.

I’ll grant that I doubt you can call up ACR customer service and receive tips on what to do if you’re having problems with your bot ring. But the bot site I linked does list ACR as being “loyal” to botters. That’s not a statement coming from ACR, that’s what the site says. Again, I will allow that the site does not say verbatim that ACR supports their product.


D1G1TALFOX has helpfully provided a screenshot of the statement I was "trying" to find.


Where I disagree with you is I believe enabling=support. A consistent lack of action against bots and bot rings in light of a preponderance of statistical evidence of suspect behavior implies enabling. The fact that a paid ACR rep on this very site has advised users on strategy against bots on ACR strongly implies enabling, at least to my simple mind.

But since you have regularly stated I can’t understand what I read, maybe you can explain your view on the matter, since from my standpoint, allowing this cheating to continue despite hundreds of posts from concerned users, as well as posts from actual cheaters themselves, statistical data which strongly implies cheating, and explicit admission on behalf of an actual WPN employee constitute tacit support of bot users.


If you have any questions as to the point I am attempting to make, or still feel misled, please ask.