I made a snarky post about this, then I deleted it extremely shortly thereafter because as I said that I didn't want to be involved in unproductive drama.

To be fair, my post was public, albeit briefly, and your concern about the possibility about Joey's computer not being secure is valid IMO, so I hope you don't mind if I post what you left in my inbox:





I responded with the aforementioned quote because I was aware that you had skyped a WPN employee less than two weeks before you made the message (at the time of my posting). There's nothing wrong with that, and my post was really just a likely-inappropriate attempt to be a smartass, thus me deleting it quickly.

But full disclosure: I think perhaps that your history of off-forum communications with that employee led them to discount the rigidity of 2+2's ruling, and this led them to offer promotional deals in a non-sponsored thread, Mason had to correct them. That's just my opinion.


Now there is nothing wrong with having a friendly personal relationship with a WPN employee or affiliate. In fact, Thrash is very nice to me when he really has no cause to because of me not giving him a fair shake in the past. I actually logged on to send him a thank you message when I got yours.

I am making no claim of impropriety on your part, and I think that the WPN employee wasn't acting in bad faith when they mistakenly thought they could still offer promos.

But I think in many cases, you appear to be biased in favor of WPN. Your public post history seems to support this opinion, and your off-forum communications with WPN employees, in my mind, supports that opinion as well.


There is nothing wrong with being biased, we all are to a degree.


I freely admit that I am a fan of Joey's videos. But I take full responsibility for my own opinions. I strongly disagree with him on several core issues. For instance, I don't think that PLO is a "great game" and it accounts for 80 percent of my losses in poker. Also those Choice Center people give me the heebie jeebies, and they remind me of the overly friendly people you see at the beginning of horror movies before the protagonists learn their neighborhood has been infested with aliens, demons, or killer robots.


As someone who still has a very small amount money on WPN, I am slightly concerned about cheating on the site, disorganization all the way up to the top levels of WPN, Nagy's utter incompetence as an executive throughout this fiasco, and the fact that WPN threw away a relationship with the most trusted and constant name in poker for the past three decades because he couldn't be bothered to reply to an email (I am assuming for the sake of argument that he is literate, but I have as much proof of that as I do that
Хорошийробот112, Вылегкиеденьги and Американцыглупы are just some friendly Eastern European regs looking to have a great time on the site ).

It's a very frustrating situation, and the paucity of concern form the upper echelon is aggravating.


Imagine how the general public would react if Mark Zuckerberg didn't bother responding to a massive integrity scandal involving Facebook because he "thought the criticism was unfair."

I think because of the lack of a clear official response from WPN, the fallout from these videos and years of accusations has led to a lot of confusion.

No harm no foul, I don't think that any of the people I deal with are bad actors, yourself included, and I wish everyone well.



Well, I wish Nagy unemployment tbh. But aside from that, no hard feelings.


I think there is merit to your claim, and Joey's claims of superusing are extremely serious and I think he needs to figure out a way to discount the possibility you raised before he puts puts them out there.


If I'm out of line in posting your reply to my inbox, please delete it with my apologies.

Yeah, so to address this further and make sure there is no confusion about my last post or my intent - you are correct that it had been 13 days, not "weeks" since I had any communication with anyone from WPN. To be honest, since it was almost 3 weeks into the month, I didn't give it a whole lot more thought than that, as I knew I hadn't communicated with anyone about the issues in this thread since a day or two after our decision - forgetting the brief message I sent about the rules around non-advertising reps. It doesn't change the point I was making to Joey (and I know you weren't suggesting it did), so I don't feel bad about getting the timing slightly wrong. But I do like being precise about details, so my apologies for the error.

I'm 2+2's advertising rep, so part of my job is to communicate with site reps, both advertising and non-advertising, off (and on) the forums. 95% of my communication with WPN was with their marketing people, but from time to time I'd get questions from those that act as reps on our site.

This isn't an issue of WPN knowing the rules but figuring they have a good relationship with Bobo and thinking I'll let them slide, and then Mason stepping in. I probably hadn't clarified the rules for them around non-advertising rep posting, and when Winning_TD posted something a little outside those rules (he didn't actually post any promos, but said he would be, and let people know they could PM him for RB), I immediately edited his post, communicated the rules to him, and let Mason know, who also replied.

Agreed. I like to think I have a good relationship with all of our reps, both advertising and non-advertising. And it's not just about advertising and my job - I try to deal the same way even with reps that I'm fairly certain will never advertise with us. Of course that's still good business, but it's the way I like to operate regardless.

Nice.

I don't entirely agree with this, but I can see how it might appear that way from some perspectives.

I try, for the most part, to not make judgements on poker rooms one way or the other, whether they advertise with us or not. (Well, with the exception of Cereus, who I've always trashed mercilessly - but I stand by that.) However, I will often come into a thread and take issue with a post that I don't think makes sense, needs further clarification, etc. For example, when people make claims that their evidence doesn't support, or are premature, etc. And while I'll do that whether a post is pro- or anti- a given site, and it doesn't matter whether the site advertises with us or not, I will readily admit that it's likely much more often anti-site posts, and probably more often about advertisers. I believe that's mostly due to the nature of posts - people more often post negative feedback, and most of the biggest sites advertise with us and we'll see more posts about them - but if that comes across as a bias, I at least understand where you're coming from.

I think instead what you mean here is my role with 2+2.

Sure. I can accept that I am, and likely more than I like to think, no matter how hard I try not to be. Hopefully, though, people are able to look past biases, or perceived biases, and debate the points made instead. Unfortunately, a lot of the time people get too hung up on what they think is a bias and don't take the time to read and understand points being made.

All very understandable.

As do I.

Exactly. And it could be that he already has. If he is that certain (1000%!) that he has been cheated by someone able to see his hole cards, I sure hope he's just as certain his computer is secure, and has done a lot more than run a virus and malware scan to do so.

Well, I hadn't intended for all of it to be public, but I also try not to send anything privately that would cause me a problem if it was posted publicly, so I have no problem standing by anything I said in that PM.

I don't mean to further derail, so this question is merely hypothetical: why share his PM to you like that, though???

A few reasons.

Some people might have seen my comment before I deleted it, and if you are unaware of my tendency to be a smartass, could have well been taken to mean that I was implying that Bobo had some kind of under the table relationship with WPN, which I didn't think at all.

I thought that Bobo had a very reasonable explanation of his relationship with WPN, and his message indicated to me that he sincerely thinks that Joey's personal security could be compromised, and that could explain the superuser allegations.


It also led to an honest discussion about Bobo's relationship and communication history with WPN, which I think was productive.


I also think that public discussion of things is better than private ones on matters that affect the community like this. I think that Bobo's previous dealings with WPN makes him exceedingly charitable towards them, he feels frustrated that people are discounting a valid point that he's trying to make.


I think the community benefits from this sort of discussion more than the times when Bobo questions my reading comprehension and I accuse him of not knowing what a dictionary is .

Nobody asked me, but the general policy is that PM's should not be made public unless the sender agrees to it.

Of course, the flip side is that since PM's might be made public without the sender's permission, nothing should be sent via PM that would be extremely embarrassing (or worse) to the sender if the PM were to be made public.

well lets make this educational

what measures could one take to be extra certain?

Written in regards to the Jeans89 hack in Barcelona



Would add that everyone should use 2FA for everything possible, wherever its offered

I think as long as you go to these low end bot sites and they list WPN as the number one site to play on with the least amount of risk to get caught on then the writing is on the wall. As what others have said before if these little ****ty 100$ bots that beat the 1-2 cent NL games are suggesting the use of WPN over all other networks then wth is going on with the high end bots?

Good to see Chlore back at the tables! /s

Joey there is a problem with long time 2+2er and mid-high stakes player trambopoline getting his account frozen with a large sum of money.

The guy has had a rep here a lot longer then many high stakes players and unless anyone has a reason to doubt him this isn't right as it shows anyone could be subject to such BS. WPN needs to make this right unless they give a real reason why this is going on.

Yeah the major seller of poker bots shows WPN as their primary medium it seems. Any ****** can search online for 'poker bots for sale' and these poker bot companies don't hide what they are doing in the slightest.

It might not be in collusion w WPN that these companies exist, but in one way or another they seem to have concluded that WPN is one of the easiest sites to exploit (along w BetOnline/Chico). They probably focus on US-facing sites because they aren't regulated and have much less incentive to stop botting if they aren't in fear of losing a legitimate gaming license (like a UK license).

It's pretty demoralizing to see. They brag about being downloaded over 1/2mm times, offer 5 pre-loaded profiles, and they offer SUPPORT!

That's why internet poker is dying faster than it otherwise would on the high rb, grinder-friendly sites. This wouldn't be happening as frequently if sites took away the incentive to do this, either by stepping up game security or taking away the high rb, ability to use any 3rd party software money can buy, rake races, etc. That's my view but if there are other solutions to stopping this, I'm sure people much smarter than me will figure it out.

Wait, we're not seriously complaining that WPN's security is too tight?

Complaining about temporary freezes for investigation (if there are actual bans and seized funds then it's a different story) on innocent accounts is like saying only the terrorists should go through airport security.

When a player has a better and longer rep timewise in poker then the poker site itself then ya...... I'm sure you youngins don't know who the dude is but WPN may as well have frozen Durrr's account.


They fixed the problem tho.

Bill cosby probably lived before they invented the automobile and yet his rep didn't mean jack.

In other words, I don't see much wrong with a temporary freeze just for investigation if they have a reason to suspect anything.

Lol, AllJackedUp hasn't been a 'youngin' in 35 years.

A capcha was admittedly missed and set off the suspension. If it didn't, people would complain that the capcha doesn't do ****. If the missed capcha triggered a temporary suspension on a known player, that is a good thing, much like the account being quickly reinstated due to an innocent/accidental oversight. It's supposed to work that way. The missed capcha should trigger an investigation and temporary freeze if the account.

Why should Durrr, or anyone, get special consideration? Is there not a list of pros that have been proven to be grimy? They operated in a sleazy way prior to being caught and would continue if they weren't. It's like when WPN temporarily suspended Perkins' account. His name/reputation should not preclude him from abiding by the rules.

Why not? Advertising banners all over the forum allowed WPN to do it for years.

Unless, you're suggesting Bobo's actions and sentiments are genuinely heartfelt and lack any relation to the advertisement money that's been coming in for the past 7 years. Which, I find extremely hard to believe.

Bot operators showed up to the forum talking about how much they made on WPN while Bobo and company took advertisement money from them. I'm still trying to figure out why the mods on 2 + 2 are being praised for finally cancelling WPN's ability to advertise on this site.

Joey's name and reputation is the only reason something is being done and that's scary. If you're going to thank anyone thank him. These mods are desperately trying to save their credibility, at this point. They could care less about anything else. Their actions over the past few years prove this fact.

Sorry, don't have a clue what you are talking about. You either completely misread what I was talking about or meant to respond to someone else.

Moved the posts about advertising here:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/5...ising-1703886/

I allegedly missed a captcha, which I find very unlikely as it encompasses a large portion of the screen. But either way I’ve solved dozens of captchas over the last year or so. So even if I missed one there should be some sort of leniancy would you agree? To be honest they could have told me it was regarding a missed captcha and I would have felt more comfortable knowing why I was being investigated. I defnitely agree that just because I’ve been around for a while doesn’t mean I should be immediately cleared of any wrongdoing. It was more of the fact that I’m on a large heater and wpn randomly freezes my account and tells me no details whatsoever, not even a damn email to tell me my account has been frozen. When there’s large money at stake it’s a pretty harsh thing to do to someone and in the back of my head there’s always the minute chance they’re gonna make some bull**** up and confiscate my money

Regardless, I think you might want to not keep a large amount of money on ACR. Just saying.

I get what you're saying, 100%. What if your account was hacked, would you want them to freeze it upon not being able to answer a capcha or rudimentary question?

Not trying to disrespect your position, but you have to look at it from the outside a bit. If WPN hindered you account in any way.....they would be in the wrong. If they suspended and account you thought was suspect, would you appreciate it?

The inconvenience sucks, but the last of could cost much much more..

Ya you have a point a dewd. Them not even sending an email tho...... WPN is just not on point when it comes to much it seems. It's kinda sad that one of the main choices for US players doesn't have anything resembling decent support. Over and over again their support comes up as pathetic at best.

I'm sure Trambopoline was having an anxiety attack over this, I'd be losing my **** if I had $1k in an account and they froze it like that lol. Nice to see it all worked out tho.

ive asked this semi-rhetorical question numerous times. I hope some intelligent people will really consider this....

Why would anyone attempt to run a US facing poker site post-BF unless they are making money at a rate that far exceeds what they would do in the ROW market?!?

i mean the risk of DOJ/Feds is real...why would anyone do this(and do it publicly) without a SERIOUS financial gain in sight? i highly doubt anyone takes this risk that is interested in running a legitimate site.

Why are all the other poker sites floundering and struggling...having to pinch pennies everywhere, reduce edges for winners etc. Meanwhile WPN is just chilling running milly GTDs, giving old school rakeback deals, and paying out overlay like its Christmas when NOBODY else in the market is doing it?

how are they immune to so many of these issues plaguing the business/economic side of poker sites in the post BF era?

Yeah this is an eerily good point. Having said that, there has to be some winner, even in high-risk black markets such as the US online poker market.