No, just tales perhaps from some of these people you claim I've never contacted. But since they didn't tell it to you, I guess it doesn't count.

Lets go with that. I have been told by a source who I have no reason to disbelieve that one of the current UB pros has been at work teaching Scott Tom how to cheat in a much more subtle fashion to avoid detection.

Do I believe it? Not really. Not now. My belief is the pro is just a good tourney player who signed the best offer put on the table.

It would take some photos of the two together or an email exchange or something similar. If I had those, I would write it up and show the proof. If there was a need to protect the source, I would. But I wouldn't just say "trust me". I am damaging someone's reputation otherwise and just cuz they can't really do anything about it, doesn't make it right.

In your case, an engineer could easily provide evidence without compromising their own identity. Otherwise its just data without backup.

But only if the engineer still possessed the client versions of the software as they existed at that time, which is highly unlikely. This is another example of one of your basic investigative flaws; you think that every answer will be found in a file or document somewhere, that every bad guy went around keeping diaries of what they did. No, it's about wedding written and oral statements to those documents and facts that are available and weeding out or double-checking all the stuff that doesn't match up. Only in that way does the true picture emerge, but you just cannot manage the people stuff and so you fall back on the other, to the detriment of your overall viewpoint.

Added: And by the way, one of these sources suggested that dougmanct and others should keep on decompiling, because more interesting stuff is likely to emerge.

I'll let you have the last word. I will also thank you for pointing me to the concept of RICO statute of limitations vs state/federal. My project today has been reading legal junk in between putting on my cristopher hitchens hat here.

And I will thank you for posting those Whitefish photos, which was a legitimate good find. Bonnie Leinhos, Ron Saccavino and Dennis Novinsky are among those pictured. But it does not excuse this other stuff. If you're gonna trash my well-researched theories, you have an obligation to counter with your own.

i know this will never happen but i really wish you guys could work together.

you both know only too well how a big and complicated task this is, so surely pooling your resources whilst you get on with your respective specialities/interests would 'shovel the ****' faster?

also haley is a journalist whilst EG is a writer. these can overlap and compliment, but are certainly not the same thing.

finally, there's definitely space for one UB/AP book/project, but not two. this has been dragging on for so long, it would be nice if you both got paid, right? and won't it just be great when there isn't any **** left to shovel?

as i said though, i know it will never happen... i just hope the projectionist gets to load the final reel at some point. it would be a real shame if it never makes it out of the can.

Haley,

Please stop the personal attacks towards EG. This means making more "I" statements and less "You" statements.

EG,

Some of your posts (not all) come off as trollish. In the future, please stick to your healthy criticism of Haley's work.

Sounds like someone is writing a book & is mad & throwing a hissy fit that a lot of the information is going to be in the public domain & he won't get credit for breaking it in said book.
Haley probably gets less attacks & more co-operation from the culprits. How does this make sense?

And don't bother pointing out I have only 5 posts. I'm fully aware of that.

Hey, you only have 5 posts.

Buddha itt...

Its your best one yet though!

On a serious note. EG, I can't help but think it is difficult to catch a snake by charging through the brush screaming and waving a stick in front of you. People skills are a necessary evil when it comes to investigation.

As a reporter it only helps Haley's credeibility if she remains completely objective. Keeping your emotions in check and disassociating yourself from the nature of these people can only help you further down the road.

I hate them too, but emotions cause mistakes old bean, and too many people are hoping this story ends right.

Might as well suggest the same thing to Mason and Donkdown. It's about as likely.

I'd be willing to be a conduit

All I know is they are both remarkable people. As unfair as poker has been it's weird to still feel lucky at times.

Late to the party, been working a lot. I am not getting into the pissing match, however I have always had regular contact with ElevenGrover and bounce ideas off him. His blogs, to me, have been very helpful, esp. The Loss Reports and Ownership stuff. I have a very hard time following the info from the liquidator reports on Blast Of vs. Tokwiro.

That said, I will mention I find it odd that people like Joe Sebok, Paul Leggett/"NEW UB" like to blame the "Old UB Regime" To me it seems like the new UB and Paul are on the side of the "OLD AP" and Scott Tom.

The AP issue in never addressed anymore, but awhile ago on TWIP Seebs said his personal opinion was that Scott Tom was guilty. Yet with all the evidence of AP being liars, or the new UB still being in bed with the original AP owners, they get a walk. Now they can blame Pierson, et. al b/c it was old UB. That was a different scandal though.

Joe admitted, well after the fact, that Paul and the "new owners" covered up the scandal, or tried to.

This is something that Joe should have said, whoa, I am leaving, but now accepted that "UB" Handled it badly and tried to cover it up. Wouldn't this be a warnign to Joe that Paul is not trustworthy?

What does this say about the "new owners" and Paul about what hey tried to do with AP? Surely if they tried to cover up the 2nd scandal, they also did so, or tried, with the 1st scandal at AP?

Why does the AP story become accepted?

I am working with EG on getting some corporate documents, which I will buy, to help on the corporate stuff. This is really interesting, and Elevengrover has done a damn fine job looking into the various companies involved. His blogs raise many good questions, which need to be addressed or answered, IMO.

I just think more questions should be brought about why Paul is so anti old UB, but not anti old AP. Why are so many old AP employees still around, but not UB? Why did the "new UB" reach a settlement with "old UB" but in the AP case, they blamed it on a single employee, which has been proven false? So much more to go into, but at a later date, but to me it seems the current Cereus owners are more likely to be in bed with the old AP owners and willing to hang out the old UB owners to dry, they have done so already via Excapsa shares being worthless now

Why does Joe now think it is ok that UB messed up, which he said all along, but now why does he think it is ok they tried to cover it up after he signed? Isn't a cover a reason to leave, or not trust Paul or the "new owners?"

Well it seems nobody has any answers to the questions I mentioned above. No surprise. I would like to see what others think.

I enjoy and respect anyone who continues to dig into this. I think ElevenGrover has done numerous good blogs on the scandal.

His latest raises some good questions about the people at UB/iElogic from the start. It seems that IF the story about an random programmer turns out to be true, many of the original software people involved would have had to know what was going on.

Here is a link to EG's latest blog, which suggests some people who could have been in the know, although I would guess there are others that were at UB/iElogic/Excapsa that would have known about the cheating progam.

http://deadmoneybook.wordpress.com/2...cheating-team/

Pretty sure Iesnare talks to iovation servers directly, and iovation reports back from their DB the reputation of the user, using the flash cookie or "LSO" to tag the user.

Solid blog from EG, I encourage everyone to read it.

maybe a ton of stolen money ended up being plowed into ielogic to grow that business by the "Pierson Group" and it's likely some of the UB owners are investors in ielogic as well being that Scott Tom and Greg were friends just like Phil Hellmuth is heavily invested in ielogic