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Cardrooms: Everything Bad Cardrooms: Everything Bad

03-11-2021 , 10:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHE
Mason.
I’ve played in a few different card rooms regularly. One thing that annoys me is, in every room, there are players that are given preferential treatment. Players who get away with belittling opponents, taunting them, etc and don’t get so much as a warning, but others, for whatever reason, get warned, kicked out, etc. There are players who walk in and bypass the wait list. I see this a lot. And I’m talking about rooms that don’t allow call ahead. So, these players literally arrive and get in a game before the guy who’s been waiting 40 minutes patiently. There are other examples too of favoritism, such as floor rulings in their favor, etc.
Hi MHE:

I'll address this in the book.

Best wishes,
Mason
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03-11-2021 , 10:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianr
Presumably one goal would be to sell books - I would respectfully suggest a more balanced approach - the good, the bad, the ugly - that celebrates the parts of live poker that we like.

I for one really miss live poker, it’s one of the few environments left where there’s a highly diverse clientele, and a huge cast of characters. A book that includes stories from your decades in the poker world would be entertaining and much more then just Old Man Yells at Cloud.

Just my $0.02
Hi brianr:

While we certainly like to sell books, the purpose here is to improve poker rooms. But hopefully if the book is very good, we will sell a few.

Best wishes,
Mason
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03-11-2021 , 10:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickroll
I think this is an excellent idea for a book

I highly recommend you interview some of the poker room managers in Macau, because the odds were stacked against them remaining open and they suceeded for many years before it finally puttered out to a single room or two until covid came through with the coup de grace

while many talk about how great macau was for poker, it never really was a poker town

baccarat was the big game and played for big stakes, casinos were limited to the amount of total tables they could run so running poker at a lower profit than another baccarat table was largely a vanity project

those guys struggled against the economics pointing to other games and some held on for years sucessfully, the people who ran those rooms would have a lot of really good insights and make for fantastic interview subjects
Hi rickroll:

I know nothing about poker in Macau. So, the book won't go there.

Best wishes,
Mason
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03-11-2021 , 10:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickroll
this so much, they're always so hard to find and even for an experienced player, when at a new casino you still need to walk up a place not necessarily clearly labeled and ask a bunch of questions and get on a list and they tell you maybe in an hour a seat will open

remember the first time i played live was so intimidating and confusing - i was either foxwoods or mohegan sun and tried to sign up, they told me no limit had a long line but limit had seats, i told them i didn't know how to play limit, was told (oh it's the same thing but for smaller stakes) sat down utterly clueless and proceeded to screw up at every moment and got no help from the staff - was not a fun experience

meanwhile, i can sit down at craps, tell the dealer i have no idea what i'm doing and they'll explain everything as we go along - i understand they can't quite do that in poker but the people running the room are very unwelcoming in general with a can't be bothered "do you want to go on the list or not" and little else - i imagine way more people would play if they were more accomodating

who here has ever walked into a previously unvisited poker room and didn't have to ask at least a dozen questions - just for basic things that should be written down because literally everyone needs that info
Hi rickroll:

Poker room location and the role of what a host should be will both be addressed in the book.

Best wishes,
Mason
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03-11-2021 , 10:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borg23
Parx Aria and Wynn Vegas are all extremely well run.
90-95 percent of the dealers are excellent in these rooms (which makes a huge difference in plo), the floor makes fair rulings, seats are filled quick, you're always treated respectfully by staff, seats are filled quickly etc

my complaints would be the antiquated comp system at aria and wynn. at aria you need to get a paper printout which is annoying enough but sometimes there is a long wait as a floorman has to do it and often times they are busy (doing there job not bsing or watching basketball games like some other poker room) the wynn's is slightly better as they load in on to your card but it's just a complete waste of time either way and unnecessary in 2021. at parx my one complaint would be the cage sucks. they take forever to count money and chips and have to have everything verified 500 or more.

Wynn also has a cashier who is the fastest at counting money and chips that i've ever seen.
Hi borg:

I suspect that your opinion of dealer quality and my opinion will be a little different. How many of these dealers talk a lot? I can't believe the number is around 5 percent.

Best wishes,
Mason
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03-11-2021 , 10:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Punker
I understand this, and while it might be good for the casino business as a whole, it's bad for the cardroom (just like the high limit slots getting 10x the number of drinks delivered vs the poker room).

Maybe the section I'm suggesting is : "Seeing the cardroom as a necessary evil to promote the rest of the casino"
Hi Punker:

I understand your point but don't believe a poker room should be a necessary evil. It should be one of the many games that a casino offers and if it's done well should be an asset to the casino.

Best wishes,
Mason
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03-11-2021 , 11:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by filmbuff
IÂ’ve noticed that almost no floor staff have any training in racial, gender, and LGBT discrimination, and they ignore complaints and allow players to harass others with no consequences.
What should the procedures be? Should the floor warn the table or automatically call security to remove the abusive patron?

Most poker rooms have foul/abusive language rules on the books, however, some enforce them, some do not. I've been physically threatened and the floor/dealers did nothing. I called the casino management and told them about the situation. It obviously makes me think twice about patronizing the establishment, even though this situation happened a decade ago.

I feel like most dealers aren't trying to get the floor involved, they simply want to keep the game moving and keep getting tips. Sad, but true.

The unfortunate truth about abusive players is that aside from their character flaws, sometimes they're great for the game....

I can vividly recall a night when a person who fit this bill who lost 20-30 buyins in a 1/2 NL game in a 3 hour stretch.

Despite being scum of the earth, there were people at the table who were biting their tounge and putting up with his offensive shenanigans. Some even implored him to stay when it was clear he was about to leave.
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03-12-2021 , 01:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth
Hi borg:

I suspect that your opinion of dealer quality and my opinion will be a little different. How many of these dealers talk a lot? I can't believe the number is around 5 percent.

Best wishes,
Mason
probably 15-20 percent
but they almost all control they game really well, get cards out quickly, sort out side pots, running it 2-3 times very fast, always know the pot size in plo even in 2/2 where they aren't allowed to round. i'd say half of them that talk a lot are naturally talkative the other half talk when people start talking to them. but all of them shut up if the pots get big.i'd also say about half of the talkative ones talk way more in small games than they do big games because generally speaking people are joking around a lot more in the smaller games.
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03-12-2021 , 01:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by filmbuff
The argument that women not playing online in large numbers has nothing to do with how women are treated in live venues is absurd on its face. A lot of people first experience poker in a live setting. Bad experiences definitely lead to women not coming back, and that includes to moving online.

Also, the idea that bias and discrimination don’t happen or have an impact to the experience of online play is also absurd. The whole gg poker and Vanessa kade thing happening right now is a perfect example.

Poker rooms live and online couldn't drive women and others harder if they tried, which is what they seem to be doing.
are there some women who play live once get treated like crap and never come back or even try live?sure. although there are some i'm sure some who only play online to avoid bad treatment. but the idea that this is the main reason women by and large don't play is laughable. on a whole they are simply just not interested in playing poker for money as a game itself. while there are always exceptions men and women have different interests.

a TON of players have their first experience playing poker online these day and that was probably even more the case in the US 10-15 years ago. and still there were very few online players who were women.

while harassing women who are playing poker is disgusting, people today also want to act like everything is always equal in every way shape and form which is utterly ridiculous. you're not going to wave a magic wand and have a ton of women interested in poker. the poker rooms could be filled with men wearing tuxedos behaving like perfect gentlemen and women would still barely play poker, although there would be a small uptick. you can't use marketing to force people to be interested in things that just don't interest them.
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03-12-2021 , 04:27 PM
How about cardrooms get their players under control when it comes to misogynistic and homophobic comments, and then we'll see if it has an effect on the environment? Because I can tell you that having made friends with a lot of female players in my time as a dealer, they definitely don't appreciate how men treat women at the table.
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03-12-2021 , 05:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkraisdraw
How about cardrooms get their players under control when it comes to misogynistic and homophobic comments, and then we'll see if it has an effect on the environment? Because I can tell you that having made friends with a lot of female players in my time as a dealer, they definitely don't appreciate how men treat women at the table.
i totally agree that this should be done
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03-12-2021 , 05:04 PM
Not having a lower barrier for new players to enter ($200 buy-in is huge for working class newbies) seems pretty obvious.
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03-12-2021 , 05:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borg23
i totally agree that this should be done
How?
Cardrooms: Everything Bad Quote
03-12-2021 , 05:59 PM
Grunting but I still remember my first time playing live and it's not obvious how to get on lists, how you'll get called for your seat, how much time you have to claim your seat, where and how to get chips etc etc. Dunno what to do about that maybe some sort of faq for new players. Maybe those exist.

Calling ahead to get on lists is another one.

Generally making it less intimidating to get into a game.
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03-12-2021 , 06:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Meh
How?
kicking out players who are harassing other players for the night with a permanent ban if they don't stop when they return.
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03-12-2021 , 06:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pwnsall
Grunting but I still remember my first time playing live and it's not obvious how to get on lists, how you'll get called for your seat, how much time you have to claim your seat, where and how to get chips etc etc. Dunno what to do about that maybe some sort of faq for new players. Maybe those exist.

Calling ahead to get on lists is another one.

Generally making it less intimidating to get into a game.
the first time i ever went to a casino was to play blackjack. i tried to buy chips at the cage. they told me to buy them at the table. i tried to hand the dealer the money and they told me to put it on the table.
the first time i played poker live i tried to buy in at the table. they told me to buy chips at the cage.
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03-12-2021 , 06:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by easyfnmoney
What should the procedures be? Should the floor warn the table or automatically call security to remove the abusive patron?

Most poker rooms have foul/abusive language rules on the books, however, some enforce them, some do not. I've been physically threatened and the floor/dealers did nothing. I called the casino management and told them about the situation. It obviously makes me think twice about patronizing the establishment, even though this situation happened a decade ago.

I feel like most dealers aren't trying to get the floor involved, they simply want to keep the game moving and keep getting tips. Sad, but true.

The unfortunate truth about abusive players is that aside from their character flaws, sometimes they're great for the game....

I can vividly recall a night when a person who fit this bill who lost 20-30 buyins in a 1/2 NL game in a 3 hour stretch.

Despite being scum of the earth, there were people at the table who were biting their tounge and putting up with his offensive shenanigans. Some even implored him to stay when it was clear he was about to leave.
Hi easy:

A couple of things. First abusive players need to be handled by the poker room management. I believe the best approach is for the floor to identify these players and then to talk to them quietly away from the table, and part of the conversation should be what the poker room is doing for them (which this book will address) and what this player needs to do in return. But if the problem continues, disciplinary action should be taken, and this can include banning the offending player for an appropriate amount of time.

But there is a problem that you may be running into. Certain layers, whether you like it or not, will have what we refer to as "sucker privileges." I have a chapter on this topic in my book Real Poker Psychology.

Best wishes,
Mason
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03-12-2021 , 06:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borg23
probably 15-20 percent
but they almost all control they game really well, get cards out quickly, sort out side pots, running it 2-3 times very fast, always know the pot size in plo even in 2/2 where they aren't allowed to round. i'd say half of them that talk a lot are naturally talkative the other half talk when people start talking to them. but all of them shut up if the pots get big.i'd also say about half of the talkative ones talk way more in small games than they do big games because generally speaking people are joking around a lot more in the smaller games.
Ho borg:

I'll concede that there may be a few dealers who can talk a lot but who are still dealing well. However, in my opinion, this is the minority od the talking dealers. Also, these excellent dealers who talk are sort of setting an example to some of the other dealers that talking is okay, and this will then encourage other dealers to deal poorly. SO, in my opinion, they all need to be quiet.

Best wishes,
Mason
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03-12-2021 , 06:30 PM
Great subject - I've found myself wondering why the poker rooms in Vegas are all done about the exact same way. They haven't seemed to evolve with the new days of marketing themselves on the internet.

Will read through this thread later.
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03-12-2021 , 06:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkraisdraw
How about cardrooms get their players under control when it comes to misogynistic and homophobic comments, and then we'll see if it has an effect on the environment? Because I can tell you that having made friends with a lot of female players in my time as a dealer, they definitely don't appreciate how men treat women at the table.
Hi check:

I started playing a lot of poker in the early 1980s, and I guarantee that things were a lot worse in this area. Now that doesn't mean that there still isn't room for improvement, and poker room management (and the floor) need to address it when it occurs, but things are much better than they once were and that's not disputable.

Best wishes,
Mason
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03-12-2021 , 06:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borg23
kicking out players who are harassing other players for the night with a permanent ban if they don't stop when they return.
But that will cause a lot of issues. Where do you draw the line? How do you define “harassment?”

What if someone calls a female player a “girl?” Or “sweetheart?” Or makes a comment like “women usually aren’t that aggressive?” Are those considered harassment?

I just think it’s a slippery unenforceable slope. Decent card rooms should already have rules on the books concerning name calling such as b**ch or homophobic slurs but other than that, I don’t know how you can clearly delineate what’s worthy of being kicked out and what’s normal talk/table banter.
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03-12-2021 , 06:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuma
Not having a lower barrier for new players to enter ($200 buy-in is huge for working class newbies) seems pretty obvious.
I'm going to try to address this. When I first came to Las Vegas there use to be $10 + $2 buy-in tournaments. These seem to be completely gone now and it could be a good way to introduce players to different forms of poker, especially if the entry is earned through a promotion

Best wishes,
Mason
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03-12-2021 , 06:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pwnsall
Grunting but I still remember my first time playing live and it's not obvious how to get on lists, how you'll get called for your seat, how much time you have to claim your seat, where and how to get chips etc etc. Dunno what to do about that maybe some sort of faq for new players. Maybe those exist.

Calling ahead to get on lists is another one.

Generally making it less intimidating to get into a game.
Hi pwnsall:

A host who actually works as a real host should help with the first issue.

Call-in Lists will be addressed in the book.

Best wishes,
Mason
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03-12-2021 , 06:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoJoey
Great subject - I've found myself wondering why the poker rooms in Vegas are all done about the exact same way. They haven't seemed to evolve with the new days of marketing themselves on the internet.

Will read through this thread later.
Hi Joey:

This is an excellent thread and it'll definitely help me to do a better book.

Best wishes,
Mason
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03-12-2021 , 06:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Meh
But that will cause a lot of issues. Where do you draw the line? How do you define “harassment?”

What if someone calls a female player a “girl?” Or “sweetheart?” Or makes a comment like “women usually aren’t that aggressive?” Are those considered harassment?

I just think it’s a slippery unenforceable slope. Decent card rooms should already have rules on the books concerning name calling such as b**ch or homophobic slurs but other than that, I don’t know how you can clearly delineate what’s worthy of being kicked out and what’s normal talk/table banter.
Hi Dr. Meh:

Your points are good ones. This is where top poker room management needs to meet and discuss with the staff so that these sought of things are handled in a consistent and fair manner. And the solution may vary some from cardroom to cardroom.

Best wishes,
Mason
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