Yes, did you read mine?

I quoted only the part of your post I found issue with. That I didn't quote it all should was a clue.

And I doubt Rich will read my post as 'coming to his defense' lol

It is safe to say I'm not a PPA fanboy, I have been critical of the PPA plenty. But it is a huge stretch to lay any blame on PPA for any of the UB/AP drama. People have to take the PPA just for what they are, not so much what they claim to be.

The PPA promotes itself the same way a politician does . . . everything good was because of me, nothing bad is my fault . . . because that is the way the game is played. Even if you see right through that, though, there is no advantage to tearing down the PPA and minimizing it's effectiveness in the pursuits they have undertaken.

The public statement from Sen. D'Amato (Chairman of the PPA Board) was released on 7/22/08. You can read it here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/4031226/Pr...ating-Scandals

The statement was emailed to members at the time.

Further statements were issued from time to time, but the PPA never considered policing online poker to be its role in things. The PPA's role was, and is, to get laws passed establishing openly legal, consumer protected, and freely competitive online poker in the US.

Along the way we have touched on other things (like trying to help players get their FTP/AP/UB money from the DOJ), but the extent of what the PPA can do is limited by its resources. The PPA's resources are primarily directed at political and legal concerns. For example, the PPA advocates for good regulation but the PPA does not engage in regulation itself - the 2 are vastly different roles and the skills and resources needed for one are not the skills and resources needed for the other.

The PPA has always applauded the efforts of others to, effectively, self-regulate US online poker. That is why it is not snide when a PPA official suggests that folks who want a self-regulatory organization should gather their efforts and expertise and form one; it is instead practical. Just as the organizations fighting to legalize same-sex marriage are not the ones to ask which florist would be best for your wedding, so the PPA is not the organization to ask which site is best to play on - there are others with far better expertise in those non-political areas of legitimate concern.

I admit it does get exasperating to time and time again see the PPA attacked for what it is not, has never tried to be, and is not designed to do. To me it seems in the same category as getting mad at the firefighter trying to save your burning house because he is not out trying to arrest the person who set it on fire. I do not understand what it seems hard for some people to realize that not trying to arrest the arsonist hardly means the firefighter supports arson or does not want the arsonist arrested - the firefighter is simply recognizing that he is not a police officer.

Skallagrim

Quote from ElevenGrover

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...91/index3.html

"My gut tells me that nearly every single one of the individuals responsible for UltimateBet's failure as a legitimate enterprise will have some role in legalized gaming in the US."

The fact that nobody even remembers getting this e-mail proves how ineffective it was. I'll take your word that this was sent, but even if so, it's more of a rambling essay about the need to legalize online poker rather than a warning to players to stay off AP/UB, due to the fact that it was still not safe to play there. Instead, we got some nonsense about how the PPA condemns all form of cheating -- as if anyone thought that the PPA supported cheating and had to clear the air.

What everyone would have liked to see was an e-mail titled something like, "*** URGENT *** PPA WARNS MEMBERS TO STAY AWAY FROM ULTIMATEBET AND ABSOLUTE POKER ***", with the body of the message explaining the reasons why. That would have been effective. This "we condemn cheating" nonsense didn't come close to doing the job.



No, to me this is more along the lines of a firefighter who stands around while an arsonist goes from home to home setting them on fire, and doesn't try to stop him or warn anyone, because law enforcement "isn't his job".

Then 5 years later, he offers to help people fight denied insurance claims for people who didn't have arson coverage.

When asked why he didn't do anything to help to stop the burning in the first place, or at least warn the neighborhood what was going on, he responds, "That wasn't my job. But I'm helping now and you should appreciate that, because this isn't my job, either."

The PPA stayed out of the UB debacle and many people got cheated who otherwise likely would have stayed away and not been victimized if the PPA had loudly spoken up.

If you want to hide behind the "That wasn't our job" excuse, that's fine, but don't come waltzing into this hopeless situation in the 11th hour and act like we should be grateful for your help.

Sadly, at this point, with or without the PPA's assistance, the UB players are screwed at this point.

The time the PPA could have really helped was 5 years ago.

Your organization chose not to, and it's time to live with that decision.

That is silly.

1. You don't really want to claim that the PPA knew about the cheating and kept it a secret, do you?

2. If you do not read a warning in the D'Amato statement, that is a problem of reading comprehension, not a problem with the statement.

3. If you are mad that TE and I did not give up our advocacy efforts and spend all our time reminding people about the cheating instead, then OK fine. I guess we just have to agree to disagree about that.

Now can we go back to talking about making the future better?

Skallagrim

If you really dig into that statement and carefully read every word, I guess you can partially infer a warning.

But it isn't clear, isn't concise, isn't attention-grabbing, and the message is buried in a lot of other nonsense that distracts the reader.

This isn't just my opinion.

You won't find a single post from 2008 (or ever) where a 2+2 member discusses the D'Amato statement and says that they stopped playing on UB as a result. Nobody seems to even remember getting the letter, which means it was extremely ineffective.

Why do we have to infer a warning in a long statement? Why not just send out a clear warning that the PPA strongly advises against continued play on AP/UB, as your money is not safe there? That wasn't worth an e-mail by itself?

So yes, this is an old issue, but I only brought it up again because I find it pretty amazing that the PPA is choosing now to get involved in the UB/AP mess. It would actually look better if you just didn't get involved at all. When you have inaction for 5 years when it really mattered, and only get involved when the situation is hopeless, it looks like you're just doing it for show.

I am not mad that you and Rich "didn't give up your advocay efforts to remind people about UB". I am mad that the PPA did not take about 5 minutes total to write up a brief warning about AP/UB and e-mail it to all the members.

That's all. I won't bother continuing to debate this or bash the PPA in this thread, but be it known that a lot of us are very sensitive about the whole AP/UB issue, and most of us realize that the PPA turned their backs on this situation when we needed them most.

You needed an email from the PPA to tell you that UB/AP stole millions of dollars from their players?

You are entitled to your opinion and to post it. But perhaps the very sensitivity you describe could also be coloring your view a little bit? The PPA did not "turn their backs" on the situation. It responded publicly and directly in the way it thought was most appropriate for the time. You, and I am sure others, would have liked the PPA to have done something different. Perhaps you are right, especially with the benefit of hindsight. Of course, perhaps you are wrong. Or perhaps none of it would have mattered. But either way, to stretch what otherwise could be a constructive conversation about specific roles and tactics, into an assumption that because the PPA chose a different approach than the one you think was best, the PPA "must not care until now" is just wrong. Please also note that the PPA stopped accepting any indirect donations from, and later also from using as spokespersons persons associated with, AP/UB.

That said, lets talk about what, if anything, we can do together to help out. WE are on the same side here, ultimately, and despite disagreements we still must "hang together, or most assuredly we will hang separately."

Skallagrim

It would help if one of you higher ups from the PPA could have a direct sit down with a DOJ person of power, and tell them directly that 50 million dollars of innocent people's money have been taken. And ask them what specifically they are going to do about it. Especially when EllanorGrover says all of the founders will very likely be involved in USA poker.

Would it be possible to schedule an appointment with someone who can actually get something done? And then explain the exact situation, and hold them for legit answers?

What do u you guys suggest to do if you are from overseas to support this case?
I sent a fax but got no response, clicked some of those links in the wednesday action plan thread..
But i dont feel like i am doing enough. I hate to call bc english obv isnt my native language.
Keep it up guys

This x1000. Maybe get stars to buy UB as well?

Does anyone know what the total is for the fines the DOJ got from Tilt/Stars? Isn't it something much greater than the 50 million owed to UB/AP players? I think that's our best option, of many bad options, to plead with the DOJ to pay stolen player money with their fine money.

There is no legal mechanism by which the DoJ can pay remission to victims of an offence using money forfeited due to a unrelated offence. So what you'd really be doing is asking for two things:

1. Allege there was an offence committed against AP/UB players
2. Deem that this offence was related to the offence committed by FTP

These two actions would require decisions by two separate branches of the DoJ. To do the first one, some US District Attorney is going to have to conclude there is a reasonable case to be made against some specific alleged perpetrator over whom US courts would have jurisdiction. The second would require that the Chief of the Asset Forfeiture and Money Laundering Section decides that a crime committed by this perp was related to another crime committed by FTP and its execs against a different set of players. While the first seems at least remotely possible, it hasn't happened yet. The second seems most unlikely.

Would it be possible to follow up with a district attorney Skall/Engineer?

You guys are located in washington DC and have political contacts right? As far as supporting the poker players, I think this is by far the widest reaching positive that could come out of your efforts, as you would literally be responsible for paying 50million back to thousands of poker players.

I agree with Kutty can you guys make anything happen (SKALL/ENGINEER)???

And I was reading posts earlier in this thread where a bunch of people were receiving $250 and $500 checks/moneybookers 3 months after B.F Point is Moot at this ****in point but just annoying having high 5 figures stuck and cant get a dime. At this point ill gladly take 10% and move the hell on....

Looks like TE has abandoned us and unsubbed from the thread...To busy livin the good life....skiing in lake tahoe and such...

I could really use that 70k I had on there. My wife and I have had two children since black Friday and girls are such a blessing but expensive!

I didn't realize that's what he's going by on 2+2 these days when I replied.

PPA came together as players seeking positive laws for poker and, ultimately, authorization of the game in the U.S. PPA was not set up to the online poker police at the time, but we did put out the statement on the UB/AP scandal from a powerful senator.

I didn't abandon anyone. I got run out of the thread.

The skiing wasn't too good this August. I guess it was the 80 degree summertime weather.

I did take my laptop and worked from there, much to the chagrin of my wife.

DoJ needs funds for remission. They also need to make a determination of fraud (not the superuser scandal from three years prior....fraud in the run up to Black Friday).

Right now, DoJ doesn't have any funds for remission, nor have they (AFAIK) made a determination of fraud. They're holding domain names that have little value on their own, that are attached to sites no one is seeking to purchase.

I hope something changes in the future, of course, but that's where things are now.

There's no precedent AFAIK of taking money from one fraud and using it to pay victims of an unrelated fraud. I can't even think of a way to make such a case to them, unfortunately.

+1

ok, moving on...

It might not be a bad idea to call Pareet Baraha (or whatever his name is) and mention this http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...aring-1368439/

In regards to our efforts in citing that the US govt's hypocrisy in randomly shutting down these sites without any sort of backup plan on how to pay us should go towards them footing the (relatively small) 50mm bill with how bad they botched up UB, and esp. since they got extra money in the settlement from stars.

100 Tomahawk missiles come in at ~$50m, just sayin

The PPA is working on putting something together to send to DOJ. It will not by itself be enough (as I am sure all the haters will endlessly point out), but it may help.

As to what the rest of you can do, rather than calling the US attorney directly, I suggest calling the office and asking for the victim advocate (or whatever they are calling that position these days). Explain to that advocate that you are a US citizen who lost money when AP/UB fraudulently walked away from its obligations and you want the DOJ, just like it did with FTP, to work as hard as possible to see that money returned to the victims. Prosecutors do try and respond to victims and their concerns.

Accordingly, reinforcing the identity of AP/UB players as "victims" will be the key, if there is any success at all, in getting money back to them.

Again, I have my doubts that lack of will is the problem here. Still, it cannot hurt to let those prosecutors know that there are victims out there who care and are willing to speak up about AP/UB.

Skallagrim