i appreciate your comments & thank you for your help getting some of the threads re-instated/kept sep etc, but i will agree to disagree with you on ike haxton. If 2+2 management has no issue with their own mods dodging serious allegations, well that is 2+2 business & not mine. I have received a few interesting texts from posters who figured out who I was and will now agree with them to keep the cheating business discourse off the forums. thanks again for your help earlier. i won't be participating in this thread or in cheating discussions here on 2+2 any longer.

I basically agree with most of what hotwarmcold is saying.

He's arm waving for sure, but the message is on point imo.

My point is simply that IF Stars was aware that a large number of players are VPNing into the site from the US and was unable or unwilling to effectively police that, it at least raises questions in my mind about its ability to police other aspect of game security like collusion and bots.

Now, it is certainly possible that Stars does a much better job at policing colusion and bots than preventing VPNing. Maybe it devotes more resources to colusion detection because it sees it as a bigger threat. Or maybe it does catch more bots because it has great data mining capabilities. If you want to give Stars that benefit of the doubt, fine. IMO, however, I think this thread and the way many regs have reacted to it leads me to believe that the problems at Stars are not limited to VPN detection.

Are you for real? What do you think happens in business? "Hey team it's come out that Steve was embezzling, and Fred over here knew about it all along. But of course Fred didn't embezzle, and we know it would have been awkward for him to say anything so he's staying on as VP Operations."

Oh, ok. This reminds of when the Feds investigated Lance Armstrong. They asked him questions and he wouldn't answer, so they cancelled the investigation. They didn't think it would be fair to subpoena his teammates, doctors, sponsors, housekeeper, competitors, race organizers, medical records...oh wait.

I don't want my post to be taken as comment specific to Ike or anyone else. I don't have an axe to grind with any of these people but I would like the truth to come out. Why should questions be limited to BH because he was the primary villain? That may be true today but as others have pointed out (and BH has clearly indicated) that's possibly just the tip of the iceberg. People are pressing and asking questions beyond BH to get to the TRUTH. Innocent people get asked questions during 'real world' investigations all the time. Are you against that? Those of you that apparently have a problem with it in this situation should really step back and ask yourself why.

And now 'hotwarmcold' is leaving and clearly feels chased away. This is shameful and depressing.

At this point there isnt really any reply from beloved ike haxton necessary. Teh silence says moar than 1000s words. He was always quick to jump into all sorts of NVG threads to poast his opinion.
In this thread one simple sentence wouldve been enough. Hence he never made that poast its obvious that he thinks silence is better than saying anything. Kinda sad tbh

hotwarmcold is on point. And lol at anybody he is attacking him or disagreeing with him.

Bakes, hotwarmcold, limon and others that I cannot remember names of at the moment thank you for your input and efforts. I am asking that you do not let this issue fade away like countless others. hotwarmcold don't let these people silence you. Changing this type of behavior is the only way to grow the game. Will not be overnight but is the only way to insure a healthy industry long term.

I am posting ITT because I believe my view is to some degree valuable regarding how these situations have an effect on the industry. My forum name was derived from the belief that I am one of the people that the poker community desires and needs involved in the games. IE semi serious rec with a reasonable amount of discretionary income. Played online from 2001-2009. Started with Stud and LH when I stopped I played NLH 100-600 and PLO 100. Since then and for the time being only play live. Would like to play online again. For those who may wonder; No I was not losing money when I quit online poker.


This topic/thread is a prime example of why I have turned 60-75 people away from the game of poker in past years. Truly turned away people that had the time and money who wanted to learn the game. For the most part they would have been fun recreational players and a few serious rec players. I always had a few conversations with them explaining that the game they would need to learn would most likely not be the game they wanted to learn. IOW it was everything other than the cards they would have to learn about if they were going to play more than a couple of times a year. Those areas were off-putting because that would require a great deal of time and focus before they would feel comfortable playing. These people are marginally to greatly successful in their everyday lives. Once they realize that it is difficult to "just have a fun game" it's not worth the bother. Because they are successful and can do the math so to speak they really bristle at the idea of how easy it is to become a mark.


professionalpoker. Isaac Haxton is A. an Icon of the game B. was directly involved in the games where cheating occurred. C. is a hired ambassador for the company providing the game. D. long time member, participant and moderator at the site where the most discussion on the subject is being held. When someone as respected and high profile as Isaac Haxton cannot or will not even offer something as simple as- "I deplore cheating do not participate in cheating and hope to help end it's prevalence in the games"-. When there is "Zero upside" for an Iconic Ambassador to offer any type of reassurance about game integrity nor offer help to stop cheating. Well, I don't see a way to put a positive spin on the situation.

Some of the most disturbing comments to come from this thread were made by Vanessa Selbst(http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/members/21599/), and Chicago Joey who did a pod cast regarding this subject. Both people made comments which included .......this goes on with regularity, thats the way it is, There is much worse that goes on, we shouldn't crucify these people and it might be best stay quiet.

Vanessas Last post 1150 pg 46 ITT she says "I said the worst offenses are ignored every day if people have money that they are seemingly going to donate to the poker world. And no I don't really feel like outing people because the list is just too damn long, my memory sucks for details that I don't care too much to remember, and I don't have direct evidence because I don't talk to people in these circles very often and I don't play in these games. So no, these aren't my good friends, and I'm not gaining financially from any of this BS. If anything, speaking my mind and opting out of the system just hurts my bottom line on a routine basis. So just get over your high horses... if you disagree with my points then so be it, but I have a valid point, so the condescending holier-than-thou attitudes you're taking instead of respectful and intelligent disagreement are just cringeworthy to me." Bolded for emphasis.

Somewhere in her posts starting at post #920 Pg.37 and ending with the quoted above she tries to explain how Many bad things go on constantly yet the best thing to do is stay quiet about them and accept that she, and many who share her opinion, have a valid argument for doing so.
It is examples like these that allowed me to easily dissuade people from taking up poker as a hobby. There understanding is usually something close to; not everyone is a cheater but advantage play happens regularly and even if others are not participating they will never speak about it because it may hurt their ability to play. They never want to play after that simple epiphany.

Hotwarmcold speaks common sense , we are a lot who support him
but not all players want a honest game against their selfinterest (cheating)

Link please?

Maybe Noel's not depressed but dealing with undiagnosed mental illness disguised as genius.

Yes but the other guy didn't. You both basically have the same views but one is acting like an adult and the other is acting like a 14 year old girl.

That being said I still don't think Ike owes anyone anything. What good will come out of it for him? If he says he knew you guys would want his head and if he said he didn't you guys (some not all) would call him a liar and talk **** about him. He can't win either way so why bother?

As far as Pokerstars issuing a statement I'm sure everyone would love that but I don't think there is a good chance of that happening.

this guy has a relationship with pokerstars, relationship with 2+2, runs the best poker podcast i know of & so relies on guests & the poker community in general,and still chooses to stand up & address serious issues which could cost him future guests, contacts or harm his stars or 2+2 relationships. in addition to all that, he has been **** upon by hastings for a couple days on twitter & still holds his own.

keep it up Adam, the majority of the poker community is behind you. your the only informed party with an audience that is covering this story. i imagine it can be tricky given the stars relationship, but i'm sure you will figure something out. use whatever cover you can.

Ike tweeting about PH:

"at an absolute minimum, he continued to encourage people to deposit on UB after it became apparent they were not trustworthy."

"I don't see how that excuses the conscious decision to promote a bad product."

Ike, is it fair to say ur currently doing the same thing while promoting PS? With possible involvement in wrongdoing?

I realize these questions are awfully presumptuous...however, without any comment from Ike, they are not completely without merit.

So numberonedonk, yes, I think Ike does owe some sort of statement/explanation.

Did anyone make a MAing thread when Guy was blowing millions on multiple accounts? Is it only wrong when a high caliber player does it?

+1

What a crock of ****. I've never multi-accounted nor played on a vpn. As for serious, it's been my livelihood since 2002. Even back when Party was the primary site and they allowed screen name changes every six months and seemingly no shortage of high-stakes fish, you still had guys with several accounts to keep names fresh from the winning players. Sorry, but circumventing site rules is not exploiting every edge possible; it's just cheating.

lol @ this thread so much anger.

i would say there was an 98%+ chance both ike and mercier knew who was on the noel account 2-3 months before wsop, carry on with your pitchforks and flame torches.

you are killing it bro

This has been discussed before, but fraud is the part that's unarguably wrong. Guy wasn't committing fraud.(And yes- Guy was talked about all the time! He was one of the most popular online poker players ever)

This is Webster's definition of fraud:

And yes there's a big difference, at least IMO, in taking a large sum out of the poker community, opposed to contributing large amounts to the poker community, whether it be directly with $ or an increase in popularity/viewers.

Comparing the situations seems quite silly to me, and that applies to all of the people who allude to what they deem to be "hypocrisy"

Party had four skins back then, and for a while, a four table limit. You were allowed to have one accounts on each skin, so there was no TOS problem with multiaccounting as long as you didn't sit at the same tables. I know the other skins were segregated from the main Party skin near the end of 2005, but I'm not sure when name changes were implemented. Also don't remember when high stakes games were introduced, so you might be talking about the period between the skins splitting and the UIGEA pullout.

I guess I'm confused why it's ok for someone that you take advantage of and hunt to play on whatever name he wants but not ok for someone that hunts you to.

Rules are rules, right? What I've gathered from this thread is that it's ok to break the rules if you're a fish or playing from the US but not a big enough name to be noticed.

Why should a player that is better than everyone else have to follow the rules if no one else does? This is all so confusing. Shouldn't the rules apply to everyone or no one?

I don't really know how to properly respond to you if you still don't get it, but people aren't mad at Brian for breaking rules, they are mad at him for his deceptive actions and his behavior since being exposed.

Then what are they mad about? That they weren't important enough to be in the know? Didn't he actively tell people it was him?

We agree it'd be impossible for him to play his own name from the US, right?

The only problem I see is that he chose a huge whales account, that is obviously wrong. What if he had a brand new account?

It seems they were mad well before his terrible handling of the situation, or else there never would have been a thread made or hissy fit by Bakes.

I'm just don't get how you guys are perfectly ok with the rules being broken until it's one of the best players in the world.

"Because I want to be on Facebook" is not a defense or justification to play on different screen names on PokerStars against opponents that don't know who you are, who wouldn't play you if they did, and against people that you are familiar with unbeknownst to them.

I realllly doubt this would be a big deal if Brian made an account named "Stinger88#2" and told everyone he played with who he was.


Are you familiar with the Isildur situation?

This is what Isildur had to say about it:

http://www.pokernews.com/news/2009/1...llion-7714.htm

Brian has shown repeatedly a willingness to take advantage of others, another reason why this has been such a hot topic/big deal

Attitudes towards MA'ing have changed significantly since Guy/Patrick et all were opening new accounts every week.

Having said that, I'm obviously not in the nosebleed community and I've had it mentioned to me that Hastings was likely looked upon as a big fish in the games he was playing on the NoelHayes account.

So maybe attitudes towards MA'ing haven't changed as much as we all think, at least by those playing in the games in question. That would explain the fact that nobody batted an eye while Hastings was playing on NoelHayes.

The irony is the gang mentality that permeates the high stakes community (We decide what's ok/silence when stuff like this is brought to light) does so much harm to the nose bleed economy It's surprising all the very intelligent players don't see it and change their mentality.