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Brandon Cantu claims WSOP robbed him of 10k Mix-Max bracelet Brandon Cantu claims WSOP robbed him of 10k Mix-Max bracelet

10-03-2012 , 04:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skraper
The break is more beneficially to a player getting run over. When your opponent is running hot and every time you stick money in the pot you get shown the goods, are forced to fold, or get little value for your big hands, you start to make mistakes. Almost nobody is immune to this. You question and second guess all your decisions and as your confidence falls your mistakes snowball. A break allows you time to regroup and regain confidence. An hour off may not be enough. One night off probably will be for most players. If someone is extremely rattled longer break might be needed to get back to his A game.

IF its accepted that some of the skills of a winning tournament player are stamina and ability to capitalize on table dynamics, recent history (momentum), and opponents weaknesses, AND we assume that Cantu had an edge in these areas AND we assume that his opponent would not have recovered his mental game had he had only the one night off; then the long break is unfair/detrimental to Cantu.

But that doesn't make the ruling unreasonable or make Cantu any less of a whiny bitch.
Agree with all of this. Once the tournament is stopped for the day, which is mandatory due to the Casino closing at 5am I really don't think Cantu has much of an argument, either way one night is almost always going to change the match. Cantu could have gained information on Aguiar but chose not to and is only crying because he lost, his advantage was lost when the match was stopped for the night but that was determined before hand. Aguiar may have simply prepared better, but at the same time maybe he didn't and Cantu is finding fault in randomness or excuses for being out played after the break, either way pretty funny for a "pro" to take it like such a bitch.

Since it was the main, many players may have made the trip with the ME as a big portion of they're EV for a going over, or sold action, so once the break is needed I think allowing for one more day to be able to play a big field tourney is certainly reasonable.
Brandon Cantu claims WSOP robbed him of 10k Mix-Max bracelet Quote
10-03-2012 , 05:15 AM
Thank gawd, thank gawd, thank gawd
Brandon Cantu claims WSOP robbed him of 10k Mix-Max bracelet Quote
10-03-2012 , 06:29 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb8T4KFldyE

Best performance at the WSOP.
Brandon Cantu claims WSOP robbed him of 10k Mix-Max bracelet Quote
10-03-2012 , 07:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynasty
Even if the ruling is incorrect, that doesn't equate to Cantu being robbed.

When play resumed, the skill of the players (and variance, of course) determined who won the tournament.

For Cantu to claim he would have won if they had played the next day is a bizarre statement. In fact, isn't he arguing that he would only have won because he thinks his opponent would have been too exhausted to play his best? And that against a well-rested opponent, Cantu thinks he could easily lose?

In addition, didn't his opponent play the next day in the Main Event? And then play the day after that against Cantu? If so, then his opponent should have more exhausted whereas Cantu should have been more rested.
too much logic and well thought out post for a brandon cantu thread imo.
Brandon Cantu claims WSOP robbed him of 10k Mix-Max bracelet Quote
10-03-2012 , 11:00 AM
I've always said he is a whiny bitch. I was right.

For god sakes man up and let it go. Such a tool.
Brandon Cantu claims WSOP robbed him of 10k Mix-Max bracelet Quote
10-03-2012 , 11:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deezy
So every year 8 of the November 9 get robbed.
The most valid arguments against the delay of WSOP (the november 9) is that 1) Loss of momentum 2) Ability to research other players styles and adopt a different strategy so....... yes.

But BC is a whiney little bitch.
Brandon Cantu claims WSOP robbed him of 10k Mix-Max bracelet Quote
10-03-2012 , 11:23 AM
"Quit whining Cantu you b*tch" - Phil Hellmuth
Brandon Cantu claims WSOP robbed him of 10k Mix-Max bracelet Quote
10-03-2012 , 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevmath
From PokerNews:



More comments on his Twitter:

www.twitter.com/BrandonCantu
Quote:
Originally Posted by irunreallybad
...

also, tits!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BkBozo
Was finally convinced to watch the vid after several mentions of the interviewer's rack itt.
As nice as said rack might be, the biggest boob in the vid is still in the blue shirt...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aruj Reis
...

Thread needs more boobs
Quote:
Originally Posted by odiggity
nice wonder bra. made watchind vid easier for sure. shes prolly got really nice b's but the bra made a full c
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCx
i'll take the under on both
i think you are right CCx, def look like A's here http://youtu.be/Xv6gmJFrY8Q

Last edited by odiggity; 10-03-2012 at 11:36 AM.
Brandon Cantu claims WSOP robbed him of 10k Mix-Max bracelet Quote
10-03-2012 , 11:28 AM
Genuinely shocked at the amount of credulity on this board as far as 'momentum' goes in a game of poker. Any poker player worth his salt should realise that cards have no memory. I think what a lot of people are referring to when they talk about this is pure tilt, which is fair enough, but that's tilt - not momentum! There is no such thing as momentum in poker!
Brandon Cantu claims WSOP robbed him of 10k Mix-Max bracelet Quote
10-03-2012 , 11:43 AM
If only Brandon would realize that his name means "CAN TOO!" rather than "CAN'T YOU???". His life would be so much better. Alas, no.
Brandon Cantu claims WSOP robbed him of 10k Mix-Max bracelet Quote
10-03-2012 , 11:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof11061
Genuinely shocked at the amount of credulity on this board as far as 'momentum' goes in a game of poker. Any poker player worth his salt should realise that cards have no memory. I think what a lot of people are referring to when they talk about this is pure tilt, which is fair enough, but that's tilt - not momentum! There is no such thing as momentum in poker!
No one is saying that cards have memory, people have. It's not only about tilting, if you have a psychological advantage on someone it certainly helps to get him to fold. If you feel like the other guy is dominating you, you will not play as good because your confidence is shaken.

I don't think Cantu has been rob, even though i disagree with postponning the tournament, but there is such a thing as momentum... though it can switch pretty fast.
Brandon Cantu claims WSOP robbed him of 10k Mix-Max bracelet Quote
10-03-2012 , 11:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by leolauzon
If you feel like the other guy is dominating you, you will not play as good because your confidence is shaken.
Isn't this just tilt though?!
Brandon Cantu claims WSOP robbed him of 10k Mix-Max bracelet Quote
10-03-2012 , 01:00 PM
Quote:
I don't think Cantu has been rob, even though i disagree with postponning the tournament, but there is such a thing as momentum... though it can switch pretty fast.
The casino had to close at 5am, legally. The tournament had to be postponed for at least one day. It's still beyond me what difference it made postponing it one day or two. And personally I agree with Geof11061. It's bad enough when they keep banging on about momentum in sports.
Brandon Cantu claims WSOP robbed him of 10k Mix-Max bracelet Quote
10-03-2012 , 02:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Tom
I wouldn't go to 85% for Cantu, he likes big pots too much for that.

But yes, almost everyone has an oreo cookie type tell in their timing and hands, especially headsup where they are the only variable. A lot of strong mtt players, especially online ones, are the easiest to beat because of this. They have so much confidence in their game, and don't even realize they are playing a different one headsup. One that doesn't involve math.
hahahahha I had to stop reading there.
Brandon Cantu claims WSOP robbed him of 10k Mix-Max bracelet Quote
10-03-2012 , 02:23 PM
if it was anyone but this jackass i would agree
Brandon Cantu claims WSOP robbed him of 10k Mix-Max bracelet Quote
10-03-2012 , 02:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof11061
Isn't this just tilt though?!
I don't think so. Tilt is when you get angry and you start over-playing or over-calling. It's different than the lack of confidence you get when it seems like you can't win a hand. Then you start thinking twice about every decision and start questionning youself and your game.

I'm not saying Cantu was in that zone, but I think momentum certainly exists and can make you feel more at ease at the poker table. I don't think it lasts for as long as Cantu think it lasts. I mean, just one big pot can shake your confidence down.
Brandon Cantu claims WSOP robbed him of 10k Mix-Max bracelet Quote
10-03-2012 , 04:31 PM
Even he comes out horrible in this interview and sounds like a egoistic douche. It doesnt change the fact that not playing next day is just something wsop doesnt do,, look at wsop in vegas tourneys always continue next day and if they run to day 4 becouse of late playing it starts next day not in few days. Wsop needs to have scedule that sticks so this debate never happens why on earth is that such a big problem for them?
Brandon Cantu claims WSOP robbed him of 10k Mix-Max bracelet Quote
10-03-2012 , 05:00 PM
I had a super long post written out, but then I realized that I really just wanted to say:

1) I have some sympathy for Cantu. I watched the match and it did seem like he was out playing Aguiar and he came very close to winning on that first night. After coming so close and then ultimately losing, it is probably very easy to be upset and to want to blame your defeat on things outside of your control. And the decision to essentially postpone the restart indefinitely (waiting for them to bust the main) is abnormal enough that it's an easy thing to latch onto.

That being said, however

2) Lol at the notion that the WSOP/Jack Effel would ever intentionally rig a tournament IN FAVOR of Aguiar...
Brandon Cantu claims WSOP robbed him of 10k Mix-Max bracelet Quote
10-03-2012 , 05:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynasty
Even if the ruling is incorrect, that doesn't equate to Cantu being robbed.

When play resumed, the skill of the players (and variance, of course) determined who won the tournament.

For Cantu to claim he would have won if they had played the next day is a bizarre statement. In fact, isn't he arguing that he would only have won because he thinks his opponent would have been too exhausted to play his best? And that against a well-rested opponent, Cantu thinks he could easily lose?

In addition, didn't his opponent play the next day in the Main Event? And then play the day after that against Cantu? If so, then his opponent should have more exhausted whereas Cantu should have been more rested.

sick post sir
Brandon Cantu claims WSOP robbed him of 10k Mix-Max bracelet Quote
10-03-2012 , 05:44 PM
Brandon is probably a lot more right than I'd like him to be, likely was the better player and had his edge diminished from this turn of events.

Still wanna punch him in the face though. And I almost never feel that way about anyone.
Brandon Cantu claims WSOP robbed him of 10k Mix-Max bracelet Quote
10-03-2012 , 06:00 PM
Saw only one 'kid' and he was crying!
Brandon Cantu claims WSOP robbed him of 10k Mix-Max bracelet Quote
10-03-2012 , 06:17 PM
Looking forward to next occupy podcast to her the other side...
Brandon Cantu claims WSOP robbed him of 10k Mix-Max bracelet Quote
10-03-2012 , 06:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigoldnit
I had a super long post written out, but then I realized that I really just wanted to say:

1) I have some sympathy for Cantu. I watched the match and it did seem like he was out playing Aguiar and he came very close to winning on that first night. After coming so close and then ultimately losing, it is probably very easy to be upset and to want to blame your defeat on things outside of your control. And the decision to essentially postpone the restart indefinitely (waiting for them to bust the main) is abnormal enough that it's an easy thing to latch onto.

That being said, however

2) Lol at the notion that the WSOP/Jack Effel would ever intentionally rig a tournament IN FAVOR of Aguiar...
2 was interesting didnt think about it. Aguiar and Cantu both if my memory is right have had alot of issues with Jack Effel and wsop staff. Still no defense they can act this way the event should start next day without a doubt.
Brandon Cantu claims WSOP robbed him of 10k Mix-Max bracelet Quote
10-04-2012 , 11:31 PM
tl;dr

I am really surprised as how this thread went so deep on topics like dynamics, momentum and confidence when trying to analyze whether Brandon's claim is justified.

We see two main things in the interview (among the whining and wild accusations); one is Brandon making the claim that the WSOP made a bad ad-hoc ruling on the situation, the second is Brandon reasoning this claim by saying that a different ruling would have led to a completely different outcome, namely him winning the bracelet. This argumentation is of course BS, it's an uncertain outcome, and it's completely unfeasible to reasonably estimate what factors play a role of how the outcome is determined. It's ridiculous to take it for a fact that he would've won 100%.

So what he is actually saying is that the ruling gave him a disadvantage, and therefore cost him some EV in money and some EV in winning the bracelet (which comes along with reputational effects). Well, that's also kinda tough to assess, obviously; regardless of whether some ppl (including Brandon) think they can accurately predict the effects of momentum etc, there are still too many unknown, uncertain factors determining the outcome to ever make something meaningful out of it.

Instead, this isn't about whether or not Brandon lost EV due to this ruling. That is just an ex-post view on things, and this sort of logic doesn't help us (or him) to determine whether or not the ruling was indeed "bad" (which would make Brandon's claim justified). Instead, this is about how a poker tournament should be conducted by the responsible officials, and therefore about the best solution the TD should have taken in this spot regarding the ruling.

Let's have a look at this specific game: we have two poker players that played a tournament with a set schedule, played all the way through the designated end with only both of them left, the tournament isn't played out yet and the casino closes. This means they need to continue on another day, which comes along with a cost for them. One component of that cost is that they need to provide more time than initially thought to play it out and get a return on their investments. This cost is already realized and the WSOP can't do anything about that (or probably makes clear somewhere that this may happen and it's not their duty to compensate players in this case), and players need to accept that, since they almost always have no better option (playing it out is very mostly likely better for them than to quit).

The second component of the cost is the newly introduced uncertainty of when the tournament is going to continue, that is the uncertainty of how much time will pass to the end, and what (possibly uncertain) events might happen during that time frame, affecting their opportunity cost. This means, that the introduced cost from the view of the players isn't constant, it's increasing in time (neglecting certain preferences for later play). More on that later.

The last player, which has all the bargaining power in the game (i.e. makes the ruling and solves the game), is the TD. It is safe to assume that the objective function of the TD is to find the "fairest" solution for both players (neglecting that the WSOP might have interests that are not (evenly) aligned with the players, e.g. they might favor a ruling where both players can buy into the ME because of the additional rake paid, but that seems unlikely).

We can already tell by now what a potentially optimal solution to this game is (as other ITT have suggested already), namely the TD (or WSOP in general) should not allow any bargaining at all, and instead set a pre-determined rule for this kind of situation. This doesn't completely eliminate the uncertainty for players (they still are unsure how long play takes after restart), but it's certainly less uncertainty since the pre-determined rule is common knowledge to the players, i.e. they know at the very beginning that there is a % that the tournament may be one day longer than scheduled, and this day will start at x. Therefore, a pre-set rule is strictly better than an ad-hoc ruling. This rule can look like "Play is set to continue the next day." or even like "Play is set to continue the next day, unless at least one player wants to play a tournament of the same schedule which starts on the next day. In this case, play resumes one day after the respective player(s) get(s) eliminated from the respective tournament)." Or w/e.

Now, let's look at another potential solution, that is introduce a new stage in the game and let the players cooperate (or bargain) over the new starting time. Let's assume that if players successfully cooperate in the bargaining game, their outcomes (or EV) are both strictly greater than their outcome when a pre-set rule is in place, making cooperation a better solution than a pre-set rule (which is a fair assumption). Sweet, but the problem is that the bargaining game can also fail, what now? Well, how about a pre-set rule? We already determined above that this is better than an ad-hoc ruling; so that means that the combination of a bargaining game and pre-set rule that gets effective in case bargaining fails is a potentially optimal solution, and therefore a good ruling - game solved. Take this as a lesson: if you let people bargain, makes sure to have a plan in case bargaining fails, or get ready for a bitch fight.

Now, what the WSOP did was let them bargain, fail, and then rule ad-hoc because they didn't have a pre-set rule in place. Okay, we're on the spot, what do we do as the TD, how do we find the best starting time that is the most "fair" to both players? Let's go back to players' objectives, they want to reduce their cost of time (and therefore opportunity cost), and their uncertainty. Well, if we assume absolutely no knowledge about the players opportunity cost and their preferences (e.g. when do they want to resume play due to momentum considerations), the best solution (also mentioned by others ITT) is clearly to resume play ASAP as this reduces the expected additional time and opportunity cost of both players. (Note that we as the TD should in theory not care about players preferences regarding poker-related strategic issues anyway.)

Now, the approach the WSOP TD took is different; he went to talk to the players and estimate how their respective cost function is shaped, i.e. he wanted to acquire knowledge about the players' cost, and base the ad-hoc ruling on his estimate. This introduces a new game, in which the two players play against each other in order to achieve their preferred solution (we already know they won't cooperate). What are the problems with this game? It's incredibly hard for the TD to find a fair solution to this game because (1) the players have no incentives to not lie about their opportunity cost and therefore their signal will simply reflect their strategic preferences (e.g. Brandon could have said that he needed to back home in two days due to a business meeting which offers him some EV that is greater than Jon's EV of playing the ME) and (2) even if players won't lie it's just incredibly hard to find a fair solution given that the TD will never be able to correctly estimate the players' opportunity cost (what if Jon played the ME for 4 days, and during this time frame Brandon did indeed lose some EV because something happened and he wasn't where he was supposed to be? more extreme, what if somebody gets sick and Brandon needs to fly out, does he blind out?). The game also introduces a potential adverse effect on the TD/WSOP: every player (esp the eventual loser) is likely to not be satisfied by the ad-hoc ruling, therefore creating some adverse reputational effects. + discussing with toolboxes just sucks.

Clearly, making an ad-hoc ruling after bargaining of all involved parties is a bad ruling. Linking the new starting time to an uncertain outcome is even worse. Brandon is right in criticizing that ruling - his reasoning and his attitude/behavior are really bad, though, and not helping him at all in getting the WSOP to make better rulings/rules in the future. His attitude and his self-view as THE usual victim probably didn't help him playing well, too. Self-fulfilling prophecies FTW.

Last edited by samooth; 10-04-2012 at 11:55 PM. Reason: lotsa typos
Brandon Cantu claims WSOP robbed him of 10k Mix-Max bracelet Quote
10-05-2012 , 10:00 AM
Last edited by me; Now. Reason: lotsa words above
Brandon Cantu claims WSOP robbed him of 10k Mix-Max bracelet Quote

      
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