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Old 01-12-2017, 06:43 PM   #176
BatsShadow
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Re: Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino

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Originally Posted by Rich Checkmaker View Post
A game theory optimal solution to NLHE heads up poker simply means that the optimal counter strategy has the lowest winrate of all optimized counter strategies to all solutions.

Playing against a GTO bot you could see for example on a flop of K82r in a pot with 6 bbs when the bot bets 3bbs he has Kx (x%) etc. Against a known solution you would know exactly what the bots range is. And exactly the frequency of different hands. Like on the K82r flop or whatever you know exactly what percentage likelihood each hand is. You really think that knowing exactly what your opponent is doing in NLHE you wouldn't be able to exploit that???????????? Lol.

Cepheus is beatable. Every GTO solution to poker is beatable. A GTO solution to tic-tac-toe is unbeatable. GTO chess checkers go and all complete information games are unbeatable.

What do you guys think the expected winrate of the optimal counter strategy to a GTO nlhe heads up solution is??? You really think its less than 1bb or something?? NLHE is highly complex.

I take Jungleman over any bot any day of the week.
You are wrong.
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Old 01-12-2017, 06:50 PM   #177
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Re: Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino

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Was it ever revealed what the bot had when Dong folded the T9 straight?
Dong said Jason didn't recall the hand so he probably got bluffed.
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Old 01-12-2017, 06:57 PM   #178
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Re: Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino

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Was it ever revealed what the bot had when Dong folded the T9 straight?
Any way i can get you to post the hand history as good as you can remember it?
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Old 01-12-2017, 07:02 PM   #179
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Re: Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino

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Any way i can get you to post the hand history as good as you can remember it?
Board on turn was KQJx xccc, dong bet Tc9, got massive check-raised, river blank, bot pots

If the bot is GTO on the river isn't it betting indifferently so you can just call for information every time?
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Old 01-12-2017, 07:03 PM   #180
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Re: Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino

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Any way i can get you to post the hand history as good as you can remember it?
I can't do very well.
All I remember is the board was 8JQKblank, three clubs, not necessarily in this order. Bot x/r'd turn when flush came in and potted river. Dong folded T9 with Tc.

It was hand #244 if the video is up on twitch.
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Old 01-12-2017, 08:03 PM   #181
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Re: Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino

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Originally Posted by chirpy View Post
Following this with interest... Would someone mind clarifying - are they each playing a random selection of hands as dealt by the dealer? Or will all the pros be dealt the same cards/situations as each other over the course of the challenge?
They are paired up and kept in seperate rooms away from each other (dong + jason , jimmy + dan) where they play the same hand but opposites /board runout will be the same

ex/ dong gets dealt AA , bot gets dealt KK
all in preflop AQJ24 board

while on the other side

jason gets dealt KK , bot gets dealt AA
all in preflop AQJ24 board

this way it reduces variance for big hands such as the example, whereas it can still be random if people choose different lines with flush draws etc
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Old 01-12-2017, 08:12 PM   #182
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Re: Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino

Been following along and writing down the hands one player gets and then watching the paired player so I know the hole cards, for fun

Just saw the bot do something mad. Minraise 34o pre, then 4x pot cb a Q95hh flop. I don't even.. I recall it 5x pot betting the turn yesterday in some spot too.
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Old 01-12-2017, 08:16 PM   #183
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Re: Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino

Anything that seems absurd is almost certainly a low frequency balance play.
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Old 01-12-2017, 08:52 PM   #184
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Re: Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino

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Originally Posted by BatsShadow View Post
You are wrong.
wrong about what? please elucidate.
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Old 01-12-2017, 08:55 PM   #185
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Re: Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino

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Originally Posted by Rich Checkmaker View Post
GTO heads up play at NLHE would still be highly exploitable. The optimal counter strategy would still win at a decent rate, probably 5bb+/100.

So even if they do come out with a GTO bot, a human could still conceivably beat it.
Would've been great post if you had mrno1324's avatar. durr stated the same in a legendary HSNL debate about bots, that bot could never beat him because he can always adapt.

Anyway, can someone get a word to the Twitch crew that they should really fix the streams! The scaling is ****ed up and it's very annoying to watch.
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Old 01-12-2017, 09:10 PM   #186
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Re: Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino

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Originally Posted by Loctus View Post
Been following along and writing down the hands one player gets and then watching the paired player so I know the hole cards, for fun

Just saw the bot do something mad. Minraise 34o pre, then 4x pot cb a Q95hh flop. I don't even.. I recall it 5x pot betting the turn yesterday in some spot too.
I would love you forever if you posted more of these
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Old 01-12-2017, 09:30 PM   #187
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Re: Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino

saw it 4bet barel flop + turn and give up river with no equity like twice in an hour
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Old 01-12-2017, 09:30 PM   #188
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Re: Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino

here was one i saw

JJ652, fd on turn

dong (JJ in position): check back flop, bets 200 into 400 on the turn. bot checkraises to ~800. dong calls. bot bets 3.2k into 1.6k on the river, dong shoves, bot folds.

cheet (43o oop): 3bets pre, folds to 4b
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Old 01-12-2017, 09:41 PM   #189
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Re: Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino

what happened for jason in the 65s hand?
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Old 01-12-2017, 09:41 PM   #190
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Re: Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino

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Originally Posted by Loctus View Post
Just saw the bot do something mad. Minraise 34o pre, then 4x pot cb a Q95hh flop. I don't even.. I recall it 5x pot betting the turn yesterday in some spot too.
Dammit. This bot has stolen my moves.
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Old 01-12-2017, 10:43 PM   #191
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Re: Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino

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Originally Posted by Rich Checkmaker View Post
wrong about what? please elucidate.
Probably getting leveled but I'll bite.

"Against a known solution you would know exactly what the bots range is. " - The know solution isn't "simple", its a mixed solution meaning you never know what the bot's range is. That's a major point of a GTO strategy.
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Old 01-12-2017, 10:59 PM   #192
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Re: Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino

Streams with bot's holecards would be awesome as hell. However I kinda get it that it's against the spirit of poker, and probably protects Team AI from having Empire's minions watching the hands and trying to pick up sizing patterns, which could be shared amongst Team Brains. Btw, has someone verified the Libratus source code that it will only perform the end-of-day analysis of human tendencies by only hands that have gotten to showdown, not against the hands human's had but didn't show?

Thanks for fixing the scaling issue on Twitch!
Would be also nice if there was some halo around the player who is to act. Sometimes the action moves very fast and it's tough to keep up with the pace especially since there's no animation in the client and information just appears on the screen.
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:11 PM   #193
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Re: Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino

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Originally Posted by getmeoffcompletely View Post
Anything that seems absurd is almost certainly a low frequency balance play.
http://www.worldpokertour.com/live_u...-3001000-2000/
[x]low frequency balance play
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:15 PM   #194
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Re: Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino

Jason Les should answer his phone "hey it's cheet"
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:25 PM   #195
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Re: Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino

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Originally Posted by Rich Checkmaker View Post
wrong about what? please elucidate.
gto is unexploitable therefore you cant adjust to it, you can only hope to break even
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:26 PM   #196
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Re: Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino

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Originally Posted by fluorescenthippo View Post
The know solution isn't "simple", its a mixed solution meaning you never know what the bot's range is. That's a major point of a GTO strategy.
not sure i quite follow. to my understanding, even a mixed strategy results in a range.
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:26 PM   #197
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Re: Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino

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Originally Posted by ezdonkey View Post
Streams with bot's holecards would be awesome as hell. However I kinda get it that it's against the spirit of poker, and probably protects Team AI from having Empire's minions watching the hands and trying to pick up sizing patterns, which could be shared amongst Team Brains. Btw, has someone verified the Libratus source code that it will only perform the end-of-day analysis of human tendencies by only hands that have gotten to showdown, not against the hands human's had but didn't show?

Thanks for fixing the scaling issue on Twitch!
Would be also nice if there was some halo around the player who is to act. Sometimes the action moves very fast and it's tough to keep up with the pace especially since there's no animation in the client and information just appears on the screen.
I think the players get all the days hands to analyze at the end of each day.

The point of the bot is to not have sizing tells, by the way. It's meant to approach GTO. It would actually be in the bot-maker's interest if they could explain the bots entire full strategy (if that was a possible thing to do) to the humans and have them try to maximally exploit it.
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:27 PM   #198
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Re: Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino

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Originally Posted by GoBackToGo View Post
not sure i quite follow. to my understanding, even a mixed strategy results in a range.
if its perfectly balanced than you cant adjust to it
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:32 PM   #199
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Re: Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino

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Originally Posted by GoBackToGo View Post
not sure i quite follow. to my understanding, even a mixed strategy results in a range.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YouthBlood View Post
if its perfectly balanced than you cant adjust to it
Youth is correct.

And futher than that; a GTO strategy means that the strategy can actually be face-up shown to you in every spot and you still can't do anything about it other than try to mirror it.

So against the GTO strategy you could in the middle of a hand where it bets 23.4bb on a KdQd5h board, ask it what it does it with and how often and how it will proceed with all those combinations of hands on further streets, and you still can't do anything about beating it in that spot.
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Old 01-13-2017, 12:37 AM   #200
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Re: Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino

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Originally Posted by GoBackToGo View Post
not sure i quite follow. to my understanding, even a mixed strategy results in a range.
Correct. And the entire strategy is also just ranges (of call fold raise etc).

Work backwards. By the river there are only bluffs or value bets (in position, for example). These ranges must be smaller than pre flop (bc you at the bottom of only ONE decision tree vs trillions+).

Just because a range gets smaller doesn't mean its not GTO. In fact, it has to be this way.
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