Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino

01-12-2017 , 11:24 AM
Could somebody please explain why every hand is reset to 200 BB?

Is this because it's the only correct way to test the difference between humans and AI? Is the AI unable to adjust to differing stack sizes as would be seen in a normal heads-up match? (Because it's too complicated/complex for the machine?)

It appears to me that this negates a lot of the knowledge a human expert possesses :/ but then again, maybe I'm just clueless!
Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino Quote
01-12-2017 , 11:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrno1324
I fantasise about this happening and afterwards WCG, Jungle, Sauce and Ike get offered a good amount of money to rek it and they succeed.
Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino Quote
01-12-2017 , 11:31 AM
I wonder if this is one of those cases where Rich's original post was serious, then he realized that he's ******ed, so now he starts leveling to cover up his initial **** up
Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino Quote
01-12-2017 , 11:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hedgecock
Could somebody please explain why every hand is reset to 200 BB?

Is this because it's the only correct way to test the difference between humans and AI? Is the AI unable to adjust to differing stack sizes as would be seen in a normal heads-up match? (Because it's too complicated/complex for the machine?)

It appears to me that this negates a lot of the knowledge a human expert possesses :/ but then again, maybe I'm just clueless!
The bot is trained to solve with 200bb stacks. It also helps to make the duplicate format relevant.
Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino Quote
01-12-2017 , 12:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hedgecock
Could somebody please explain why every hand is reset to 200 BB?
It's a convention. From https://arxiv.org/pdf/1701.01724.pdf (Deepstack working paper, p15):

Quote:
In the particular format of HUNL used in the Annual Computer Poker Competition (40) and this article, the big blind is 100 chips and the stack is 20,000 chips or 200 big blinds. Resetting the stacks after each game is called “Doyle’s Game”, named for the professional poker player Doyle Brunson who publicized this variant (23). It is used in the Annual Computer Poker competitions because it allows for each game to be an independent sample of the same game.
And of course varying stack sizes make the game more complex so that convention definitely works in favor of the bot(s).
Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino Quote
01-12-2017 , 01:12 PM
Was it announced if every hand is in a vacuum or the bot has a memory of previous hands vs different villains?

I always thought that each hand in a vacuum was a really unfair way to gauge the bot's ability. Online bots remember every single detail of your play which is what gives them that extra edge.
Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino Quote
01-12-2017 , 01:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by botsonparty
Was it announced if every hand is in a vacuum or the bot has a memory of previous hands vs different villains?

I always thought that each hand in a vacuum was a really unfair way to gauge the bot's ability. Online bots remember every single detail of your play which is what gives them that extra edge.
It does not adjust throughout and to different opponents. So no memory.

The point of this bot is to be non-adjusting approaching GTO, which is a non-adjusting strategy. Optimal is optimal, it doesn't change or react to what you throw at it.
Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino Quote
01-12-2017 , 01:53 PM
GTO gives no ****s how you play.
Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino Quote
01-12-2017 , 02:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loctus
It does not adjust throughout and to different opponents. So no memory.

The point of this bot is to be non-adjusting approaching GTO, which is a non-adjusting strategy. Optimal is optimal, it doesn't change or react to what you throw at it.
Didn't Doug say the Claudico team was in the lab making adjustments after each day of play? Why would it be different now?
Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino Quote
01-12-2017 , 02:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loctus
The point of this bot is to be non-adjusting approaching GTO, which is a non-adjusting strategy. Optimal is optimal, it doesn't change or react to what you throw at it.
This is how it should be, however a) as mrno stated above, they did perform overnight changes to Claudico last time (I believe mainly to counter the excessive minbetting from the humans) and b), as I quoted above from the riverscasino site,

Quote:
Libratus will continuously sharpen its strategy during the Brains vs. AI competition, performing computations with the PSC’s Bridges computer each night while the pros get some shuteye.
there seems to be something similiar going on this time, but since no real info is published on how Libratus works, we can't know for sure.
Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino Quote
01-12-2017 , 02:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregorio
GTO gives no ****s how you play.
The gametree is way too big for it to play GTO anyways.
Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino Quote
01-12-2017 , 02:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NiSash1337
The gametree is way too big for it to play GTO anyways.
Do you mean in the 200BB 'reset' format they're playing currently or in general HUNL -or both/either any HU format?
Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino Quote
01-12-2017 , 03:16 PM
Quoted from above:

Libratus’s strategy is not based on the experience of expert human players, so its game play could differ markedly from the pros. It uses algorithms to analyze the rules of poker and set its own strategy, based on approximately 15 million core hours of computation at the Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center (PSC). Libratus will continuously sharpen its strategy during the Brains vs. AI competition, performing computations with the PSC’s Bridges computer each night while the pros get some shuteye. During games, Bridges will perform live computations to aid Libratus with its end-game play.

So it seems to be saying that extra-Libratus calculations do affect the play in some unknown way.
Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino Quote
01-12-2017 , 03:19 PM
I can guess that since they have super computer hours rented they use the night to keep the bot running and updating (bettering) its strategy. It still doesn't adjust to what happened previously though
Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino Quote
01-12-2017 , 03:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loctus
I can guess that since they have super computer hours rented they use the night to keep the bot running and updating (bettering) its strategy. It still doesn't adjust to what happened previously though
I don't know why you say that. I am not disagreeing, but that is not how I interpret the above quote.
Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino Quote
01-12-2017 , 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hedgecock
Do you mean in the 200BB 'reset' format they're playing currently or in general HUNL -or both/either any HU format?
The smaller the stacksize the smaller the gametree. One would expect hyperturbo HU to fall first to the computer. 200bbs is quite deep and honestly the computer beating humans there would be quite scary. I don't know if there is an estimation of the gametreecomplexity for poker, but my guess would be it's more complex than chess, so we probably will never see "perfect play".

But it obviously doesn't have to play perfectly to beat humans.

edit:

http://poker.cs.ualberta.ca/publicat...rt-nl-size.pdf

this seems to have some information about the gametree.

It also obviously requires a different approach from chess.

Last edited by NiSash1337; 01-12-2017 at 03:55 PM.
Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino Quote
01-12-2017 , 05:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NiSash1337
The smaller the stacksize the smaller the gametree. One would expect hyperturbo HU to fall first to the computer. 200bbs is quite deep and honestly the computer beating humans there would be quite scary. I don't know if there is an estimation of the gametreecomplexity for poker, but my guess would be it's more complex than chess, so we probably will never see "perfect play".

But it obviously doesn't have to play perfectly to beat humans.

edit:

http://poker.cs.ualberta.ca/publicat...rt-nl-size.pdf

this seems to have some information about the gametree.

It also obviously requires a different approach from chess.
chess is actually super super simple compared to nlh (200bb deep or otherwise)
Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino Quote
01-12-2017 , 06:01 PM
Not looking good for humanity.

Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino Quote
01-12-2017 , 06:12 PM
5% of hands. 13 buyins. still a bit early, although it might just be a sign of things to come
Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino Quote
01-12-2017 , 06:12 PM
I still have hope for humans


Quote:
Originally Posted by frinxor
5% of hands. 13 buyins. still a bit early, although it might just be a sign of things to come
129000/20000 = 6.45 buyins not 13 (200bb buyins though i guess to be fair)
Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino Quote
01-12-2017 , 06:25 PM
All of them being down is a very bad sign.
Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino Quote
01-12-2017 , 06:37 PM
If humans lose this there will not be a rematch against "better" human HU players.
Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino Quote
01-12-2017 , 06:37 PM
I am very bad at maths, but isn't that 21bb/100 so far?
Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino Quote
01-12-2017 , 06:40 PM
Following this with interest... Would someone mind clarifying - are they each playing a random selection of hands as dealt by the dealer? Or will all the pros be dealt the same cards/situations as each other over the course of the challenge?
Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino Quote
01-12-2017 , 06:42 PM
Was it ever revealed what the bot had when Dong folded the T9 straight?
Brains vs. AI poker rematch coming to Rivers Casino Quote

      
m