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Solving poker is not the ends, it is a means for developing better AI with real-world applications with the potential for improving your life.
I think solving poker is quite specialized. It's hard to see how doing it better/faster improves anything besides poker. Sometimes it's hard to see how inventions carry out to different areas but here I am not very optimistic.
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Early this year we got the solvers that can solve multiway pots. Currently you cant run the solvers that fast in real time but 5 years from now computing power will be way stronger and the first generation solvers we have now will be way better. As these guys are saying you'll be able to run libratus on your smart phone.
Anything close to solving multiway pots is far far away. You can get some approximations with some guarantees (like hands which have pure strategies in equilibirum are pure in the approximation) but those solutions might still be very exploitable (sometimes even more than 1bb/hand).
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Disagree with this for a variety of reasons, there is no reason that crushers wouldn't be audited and forced to film themselves playing to show they're not using software.
Sounds like whack-a-mole.
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Furthermore what's stopping the biggest websites from coming together and purchasing these AIs not allowing them for public consumption.
You can buy out current public solver developers for a few million which is already more than any site would be willing to pay. If they did though there will be more people coming into the public space as it would become empty and ripe for making significant money.
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Finally, the same problem could be said to exist in chess where you can run Stockfish and beat the best players in the world (especially online where there aren't as many GMs (highest rank)) eeezzz, there is software to detect if you're playing too perfectly though and you'll quickly get ban hammered.
It's quite easy to cheat at chess in a way that increases your performance by say 100-200ELO points and not be banned (I am talking online). The main problem with chess though is that there is very little to none serious play online. People have fun and it's a training ground. Serious competition is played over the board. Chess for money won't happen online because of computers.
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Where poker is going that websites will likely force you to stream it so they can review if you cheated, built in calculations to how perfectly you play and if you get too close to solvers, you would need to explain yourself or be banned.
In chess you can measure how good you play (assuming the computers are perfect which is an assumption good enough for assessing human play) but in poker you can't. There is inifinitely many strategies very close to equilibrium. You can play various styles, use bet sizings etc. In addition to that you need thousands of hands (at least) to even start assessing similarities and frequencies while in chess it's sometimes obvious the computer is playing after one game.
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chess complexity vs poker complexity?
Brown and Sandholm state in their paper that hidden info games (such as poker) are far more complex.
Sandholm claims a lot of things. Traditional way of measuring game complexity is the number of states possible but this really doesn't work for poker. For example a game of "show me the real number which is the closest to 0" has infinitely many possible moves (you can name any real number) but is very easy to play.
In poker it's a bit similar, number of states doesn't matter, not to mention that it's measured incorrectly by about any paper I've seen (they overestimate by the factor of a million by counting all possible hand vs hand scenarios instead of range vs range scenarios). Poker is simpler than chess to play well for computers. This is obvious for anyone who attempted both poker and chess programming.
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These AI *******s are doing everything in their power to destroy my livelihood and the livelihood of other poker/strategy game players.
The poker players who willingly participate in AI matches are poker Uncle Toms.
As wolfy said this has already happened in backgammon. And in chess. There's essentially zero online gambling on these games.
Yeah, cars took away horse riders, accounting software took away many accounting jobs. Machines took away a lot of dull farming jobs etc. It's how the civilization rolls. Some people with skills no longer useful are going to have hard time.
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AI developers are like starving wolves and poker players who work with them are like sheep that are pouring worcestershire sauce all over their bodies
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Same can be said about any online poker tool: HUDs, trackers, seating scripts etc.
People develop them because there will be buyers and there will be buyers because it gives them an edge (often temporary ones but if you are the quickest person jumping to new tools you will always be ahead). It's an arm race. If the endgame is that computers can provide as much value for degen gamblers playing vs them as other humans can then well, it's progress, we can have more people working on other useful things.
Last edited by punter11235; 03-20-2018 at 09:51 AM.