Is that still the case?

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/5...ation-1704544/

Not sure that we would/should if you request it, but at this point I don't even know if you are requesting it.

Firstly, I am sure that there are bots, its online poker and these sites dont really give af.

however, with solvers being used widely now with modern day regs as a study tool, its extremely likely op is getting confused between bots and good regs. without seeing the evidence you cannot call people out, that's not how it works.

also, i think its important for people to know what other previous theories you believe and debate. see below to op's previous thread where he talks about flat earth, illuminati and trump being the saviour etc.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...&postcount=396

its unlikely you have the skillset to differentiate a bot from a reg. I think its more likely you just are not good enough to win than the bots are the reason why you can not win.

this thread in my eyes is no different to a rec player accusing the rng of being rigged otherwise he would win all the moneys. i guess 90% of nvg posters are able to relate though since these threads are always filled with speculation and nonsense with no proof of anything.

Mentioned bots can use solver, but don't play same style that a "solver reg" would.
I explain why In my final bot case study.
There's big difference between very good 2018 reg and a bot.
You think with 250k hands played I don't come up with winning strategies?

Well thanks for bringing that up. You probably really hate me deep inside, since your post was 100% personal allegations against me and my skill level. I did ask mods to delete those posts but they didn't.

To keep the thread going, I need a few high level people (either 400+ reg, retired pro's or moderator) to review the work that I did.

I spoke with guy who studies bots on Chico-network and he had same concerns that I did. He also wishes to keep his information hidden from the public so bot developers cant see it. He could be the first guy to verify my work.

Errrr..... Maybe I'm overestimating the brains of poker players but in my mind it's impossible for a winning small stakes player to believe/say something like this. Mindnumbingly dumb

Well maybe you should respond in your messages

Okay let me elaborate.

I review all medium+ losing pots after every session played. I check spots like "did I call turn too loose here" "Exploitatively should I have folded this river".

There were guys who played 20k hands a month but studied poker 5 hours of a day. That's cool.
Everything looks good in theory, but when it comes to exploitative winning strategies, you wouldn't have a clue.

You don't learn something unless it clicks within you. How does a spot click? Well you get a gut feeling while playing that "maybe this is a good spot to overbet". You review the spot afterwards and then you start to implement that strategy.

After 250k hands I also know exactly how the regs play and there's no guessing games, since I have seen enough hands from them.

Only way to prove your skill level is to put in big volume.
The biggest winners are often the guys who have put in massive volume and have the best gut feeling about spots. You could have a theoretical solution figured out, but it's all about the gut feeling.
Putting in that big volume also cuts outs future mistakes. You make a mistake once, review it and never do it again.
Also in the end it's all about highest hourly = lot of tables, --> sacrificing some "reg vs reg EV"

you are in love with yourself, thats for sure.

anyway, good luck in this fight.

I have personally been reaching out to people on different networks when I see them post about bot issues on a network. I reached out to Fishtankz yesterday to compare notes.

Most of my action takes place on the Chico network. I've played 6max nlhe cash games from 2nl up to 200nl on there. At 10nl I started discovering players with identical stats and odd habits that most other regs I've played with don't have. I asked around and began to think that I was dealing with bots. I then sought out all of the information I could find on bots, including reading bot forums. I was not surprised when I discovered each bot forum listed their bot as supported for the network.

Moving up the stakes I've tracked well over 75 bots and am currently tracking nearly 50. Some of them I've had over 200k hands tracked for. I've provided this information to their security team with no action taken against the bot accounts which currently inhabit their games.

In talking to other people who are tracking bots I've discovered the most disruptive type of bots are now on almost every network that doesn't have top notch security. These bots are being purchased and distributed to a wider audience probably more than ever before because they work well. From my own analysis they can be configured to be profitable up to the midstakes. I have no first hand experience of tracking them in high stakes games.

TLDR: After talking with Fishtankz I'm convinced the accounts he's tracking are the same as the bots inhabiting most other networks at this time. Same unusual habits and similar statistics.

If we accept that some/all of these accs are in fact bots, Im mostly worried if they are sharing hole cards. Can people who are more knowledgeable say if its more or less likely they are sharing hole cards?

It became clear to me that all these sites were infested with bots when I could no longer consistently win at low stakes.

pretty unlikely that bots do that

A rough guess is that individual players with commercially available bots far outweigh any bot rings (though I can't see them not being out there), and that they don't share hole cards.

But I'd worry way more about the bot(s) being there in the first place than whether there are two of them at the table sharing hole cards. It's a nice added boost to your ev, sure, but not as nice as being able to put in volume with feet on desk and not have to worry about mental game ever.

You would have to create a list of day and night time bots, and see who plays with who.
If 2 bots table start together, then there's higher likelihood of hole card sharing.

I spoke with the clown mentioned above ^. He studies low stakes bots. Those bots always end up having very identical stats. That's not the case for small stakes+ bots. Certain stats are always similar (and thats how I detect them) but there is a lot of variation in positional stats for example.

I tried to look into if too many stats were similar and I could group the bots based on developer. I did find some preflop tendencies but sample wasn't big enough. Need big sample for certain preflop spots.
I also found one bet sizing tell for 2 accounts.

I have very good evidence for computed, pre-planned gameplay.

I appreciate you telling that.
I have history of running above EV and having negative red line, so that's why there is this debate about skill level.
You are going to end up with negative red line if you play vs the bots mentioned, since you won't get your bluffs through and the bots are very floaty. Human players always end up having certain leaks, unless you're playing just a few tables like in Zoom.
When you get to small-mid stakes, then you want to maximize your hourly --> more tables, more autopilot. (assuming games are good)

The bot floats you in every street. Preflop, flop, turn and they call rivers a lot. All that is bad for red line.
There's still fair amount of nits at 100nl where they do the opposite of previously mentioned, so you would end up with good red line.

I also had this debate on Skype.
I'm willing to bet that there is 1 human player who can almost implement bot strategy perfectly.
It's no secret that euro site regs are leaky for various reasons.
What you find with bots is basically no leaks anywhere, there is nothing to exploit, except they call too wide OTR. Bots always cbet as much as possible while maintaining balanced XF % stat. Bots play 100% perfect aggressive poker, but that is run by a computer.

There's seriously like 1-2 regs at the pool who are close to bot stats but I know they're human.
Then this talk about "best regs". I have played 500z and I know what best regs are doing and why.
And like I said, exploitative game plan will modify your stats, which happens with the 2 regs who have bot gameplay tendencies, but still seek to exploit player pool.
Also it's true with bots that they have figured the entire game out. I can take best reg and find leaks from his HUD that the player is unaware of.

How does the above sound at 20nl where it's supposed to be ok to have leaks and work your game up?

The problem with all of this, all of the bots are still active.

Bet 365 support still doesn't care.....I don't think anything will happen.

DarkS1d34l1f3

Can you plz give your 2 cents on this situation? You obviously play higher limits on bet365.
How does it feel playing vs those suspected bots?
Is there something weird? (timing tells, table selecting etc.)
Stat wise, can you find any leaks?
Do those players mentioned differentiate from your normal reg?

Still looking for that moderator or 400+ reg to peer review my investigation. MCAChiTown was very anti-messenger so I didn't send him my findings yet.

Yeah I have worked hard on my game and looked at alternative coaching videos and such. That PPT I made is very strategy filled aka. free coaching for anyone who reads it.
If I was trading stocks, I would tell you which companies to buy and why.

Very few networks appear to be taking the botting issue as seriously as we should all hope they would. In my eyes most of the networks appear to be either incompetent in the security department or complicit in allowing the bots.


I'm actually not anti-messenger, but rather not comfortable using skype and the like on my current computer. As soon as I purchase a new one and secure it I'd be happy to communicate via that method. I'm not sure that I could add much more help to your cause being that I can't play on the network. Hopefully some others closer to the situation or someone more knowledgeable than me when it comes to bots can chime in.

Okay, yes, there was on the past two weeks very suspicious calldowns I think 2 times for full stacks.

I have very deep-detailed HUD (self made notecaddy stats too), all about find the players leaks.

Some of the bots are not the best set up, but some of them for example the bastard Caligula has very good set up I can hardly find any leaks. Very annoying.

Sorry about that I give the two cents and I hope the best.

How none of accused stepped up to laugh at accusasions.. most people follow 2+2 or at least some of their friends..!?

I just viewed a very detailed slideshow Fishtankz put together about these accounts. I already believed the accounts Fishtankz is tracking were bots prior to even seeing it. After viewing it I think anyone would come to the same conclusion. I don't have experience using solvers and I don't have a degree in a mathematical field so I can't verify that all of the math is correct or that all of it is of significant size, but I believe that the combination of all of his evidence is solid enough proof. If the sites don't take action against the bot accounts after viewing the slideshow then I believe they are likely complicit in allowing them. It's clear that Fishtankz put a lot of time and effort in to this project. He's done some very comprehensive research and I believe he knows what he's talking about. Hopefully the sites will do the right thing.

I'm happy to help put this information together for a video after I get back from the poker awards that take place later this week.

After more research & discussion, I think the fight against bots is one of the most important things of focus if online poker will still exist in the future.

I remember when Bet365 changed their rakeback program cutting it they also brought new software that was uterly terrible and still I can't play it.
The shocking thing was that despite the super negative changes the amount of regs that grinded the games increased a lot.
I mean lets be honest they aren't that dumb so they know what was going on. I mean bunch of legit regs quit yet suddenly a lot fo strong regs willing to battle anyone appeared.

I wanted to check for the bots there too but it is impossible to buy datamined hands for premium tables on bet 365 (or at least I am not aware of any site that offer them). And on top of that I just couldn't make it work for me as bet365 would crash multiple times whenever I tried to play a session so I just quit playing there.


But again makes completely no sense that suddenly they introduced ****ty rakeback and terrible software and yet there were suddenly multiple regs willing to battle the tables that weren't there before. I mean wouldn't be suprised if some strong bot creator mad a deal with bet365 tbh.
Worst case scenario they just turned blind eye on them as many legit regs quited due to changes with rakeback and unplayable software.

This just in.



Impressive work, considering the thread took its course over weekend.

Is it surprising that ipoker has bots and worse?

If you trawl through the ipoker thread from around 2010-2013 you will see we all found cheating players (bots, colluders, strange accounts that appeared altogether then disappeared altogether) - nobody got any money back and we were likely owed hundreds of k collectively. (was msnl/hsnl ring of cheaters). There was a guy who was investigating these players who were blatantly caught cheating (as they all disappeared overnight, and more returned later) but he gave up - I was actually going to help him with the investigation but it fizzled out.

I would steer clear of ipoker and online poker in general in any serious capacity if you're worried about bots/cheaters - you won't see a penny from the companies and they dgaf what you find. ipoker itself was founded by a well known scumbag.

I still saw today/tonight almost all of the listed names. So i don't know which accounts they have banned already.