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Old 02-13-2018, 10:00 PM   #26
a_r_K
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Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

I'm also paranoid some regs i play with a lot use in game realtime software to make decisions . Has it been confirmed at all if any decent ones exist for any of the major sites?
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:24 PM   #27
SootedPowa
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Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

No money online everyone is dreammachining.
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:51 PM   #28
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Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

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Originally Posted by a_r_K View Post
I'm also paranoid some regs i play with a lot use in game realtime software to make decisions . Has it been confirmed at all if any decent ones exist for any of the major sites?
its confirmed on many sites that have spins/jackpot sng formats there available 'realtime' assistance. some even sold here on 2+2. safe to assume exists for other formats as well. its actually quite easy to build a program that makes it possible to pull up graphs/charts/pioresults using audio commands and or hotkeys/macros to play just about every situation perfectly on the fly. stars is the only site i know that has banned people for using such programs
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:59 PM   #29
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Re: Bots on iPoker & Bet365 / Future of online poker / Solvers & helpers

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Originally Posted by TooCuriousso1 View Post
Without speaking on specific players, you nailed it imo. It's going on everywhere to some extent, lesser on PS but still happening.

The real key to stopping this is creating a playing environment where bots/scrapers can't read the hands/game state. Things like constantly changing card positions/fonts etc. Although there's prob ways around that too! Idk man...
Changing cards etc wont do much. Anyone good enough to be able have bots running (except them that just buys some ****ty bot, idk about that), will very easily be able to combat that with just having some learning algos. As long as you, as the player can see something, the computer can see it.
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Old 02-14-2018, 12:33 AM   #30
Ojete
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Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

What about random "captchas". Those are not identified well by computers. Or sending a surprise chat to a suspicious player while he plays.
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Old 02-14-2018, 01:04 AM   #31
YouAreHappy
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Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

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Originally Posted by Ojete View Post
What about random "captchas". Those are not identified well by computers. Or sending a surprise chat to a suspicious player while he plays.

Most of them are very easily solved by CNNs. That said, most successful bots probably have a operator clicking them buttons.
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Old 02-14-2018, 01:46 AM   #32
TooCuriousso1
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Re: Bots on iPoker & Bet365 / Future of online poker / Solvers & helpers

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Originally Posted by YouAreHappy View Post
Changing cards etc wont do much. Anyone good enough to be able have bots running (except them that just buys some ****ty bot, idk about that), will very easily be able to combat that with just having some learning algos. As long as you, as the player can see something, the computer can see it.
Could they learn all possible ways the cards could potentially change on the fly hand to hand?
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Old 02-14-2018, 02:14 AM   #33
YouAreHappy
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Re: Bots on iPoker & Bet365 / Future of online poker / Solvers & helpers

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Originally Posted by TooCuriousso1 View Post
Could they learn all possible ways the cards could potentially change on the fly hand to hand?
Yes.

As long as the cards look even similar to what a human can recognize as cards, a computer will do the same. Anything from the pokersite in terms of trying to "change" the cards will have no effect at all unless we are talking about very primitive bots that are just coded to look for the exact pixels or something.
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Old 02-14-2018, 04:00 AM   #34
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Re: Bots on iPoker & Bet365 / Future of online poker / Solvers & helpers

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Originally Posted by YouAreHappy View Post
Yes.

As long as the cards look even similar to what a human can recognize as cards, a computer will do the same. Anything from the pokersite in terms of trying to "change" the cards will have no effect at all unless we are talking about very primitive bots that are just coded to look for the exact pixels or something.
Are you saying this because you have prior knowledge about this sort of thing or are you guessing? Sorry, No easy way to ask that because everything I've been lead to believe suggests that often even slight changes causes disruptions to the bots/software that is run. This is extremely evident on some sites.
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Old 02-14-2018, 09:07 AM   #35
YouAreHappy
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Re: Bots on iPoker & Bet365 / Future of online poker / Solvers & helpers

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Originally Posted by pontylad View Post
Are you saying this because you have prior knowledge about this sort of thing or are you guessing? Sorry, No easy way to ask that because everything I've been lead to believe suggests that often even slight changes causes disruptions to the bots/software that is run. This is extremely evident on some sites.
I am not guessing. We did similiar stuff in undergrad comp-sci courses in computer vision.

Writing something that detect cards even if you change them is trivial.

I would guess bots are gone if software is changed due to other things then card-recognition. But I have no idea how them bots that run on sites are written and if they screen-scrape or just read the windows-api to detect what is put on the table, neither am I interested in it.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:58 AM   #36
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Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

My thought was that they could apply a certain bling when you get shown your cards. Let's say that live poker way where your cards become hidden after you looked. This bling would be completely randomized and it would disrupt card reading software.
A bot programmer may be very good at linear programming, but have to clue about visual programming, so that could backfire on his bot for a long time.
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:06 AM   #37
DarkS1d34l1f3
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Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

Addition to the botlist: wakeemup
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:12 AM   #38
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Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

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Originally Posted by DarkS1d34l1f3 View Post
wakeemup
I reviewed him yesterday and I think he's clean. I PM you more info.
When I claim someone is a bot, I'm at a >95% confidence margin where villains stats all match. That 5% could just mean it's differently programmed.
This reg you mentioned would be way off from that confidence margin, big time. If that's the case, then I'd have to look into some other stuff. I did, and did not find anything suspicious.
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:40 AM   #39
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Re: Bots on iPoker & Bet365 / Future of online poker / Solvers & helpers

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Originally Posted by pontylad View Post
Are you saying this because you have prior knowledge about this sort of thing or are you guessing? Sorry, No easy way to ask that because everything I've been lead to believe suggests that often even slight changes causes disruptions to the bots/software that is run. This is extremely evident on some sites.
That's my feeling too. Screen-scraping software can obviously be updated by botters, but not instantaneously. If a change in card design breaks the screen-scrapers for a day or two and a dozen "regs" all stop playing simultaneously, the site should be able to detect and ban them pretty easily. Other players would also notice when all the suspected bots take a day off. In short, disrupting the bots seems like a good way to identify them.
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Old 02-14-2018, 04:27 PM   #40
Mohsen
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Re: Bots on iPoker & Bet365 / Unfair AI advantage

Detecting bots should not be that hard for the network tbh! I remember like 7-8 years ago one of my friends was playing at poker stars and did share cards with someone else and played a hand oddly (min3bet-backraise etc...) , like 12 hours after the incident both of their accounts got banned and support asked for reasoning behind the strategy they used!

So IF they want , they can ban them easily ! The same thing is going on Chico network for years! The problem is they simply DON'T CARE !
@Fishtankz reported them 2 weeks ago. What happened!? Any of them got suspended!? Stopped playing!?
I'm sure OP is not the only one who reported them!
Anyone has an Idea how to do something about it? Legal ways!? anything!?
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Old 02-14-2018, 05:03 PM   #41
spew$
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Re: Bots on iPoker & Bet365 / Future of online poker / Solvers & helpers

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Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
That's my feeling too. Screen-scraping software can obviously be updated by botters, but not instantaneously. If a change in card design breaks the screen-scrapers for a day or two and a dozen "regs" all stop playing simultaneously, the site should be able to detect and ban them pretty easily. Other players would also notice when all the suspected bots take a day off. In short, disrupting the bots seems like a good way to identify them.
Pretty sure that convolution neural networks, which can detect images very well, could easily handle the movements with a little extra programing, which will very likely exist pretty soon. They are essentially able to tell what an image is by less pixels than a human requires, as long as they know what they are looking for, which will end up being pretty trivial for the programmer. I mean, even if the suits change to something else, it just has to know there are 4 of whatever and to be able to recognize differences between, maybe they could change them a lot, but I don't think moving the cards around or changing the shape will end up mattering, unless they got absurdly original with it, which would probably be annoying to the human player.

This may be impossible/crazy but how about a kind of gto/server side bot that monitors all the players. It would monitor several things, what the solved/gto response is for all total hands of X player vs N player, also the response of the total hands just X player has observed vs N player. Also those two responses, but considering all players at the table in both ways. Maybe one that is also an average? Even the best human players are nowhere near perfect in this regard, potentially flagging accounts that are seemingly perfect, or even close to it. If anything, it may just hurt their win rates but hey that is something!
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Old 02-14-2018, 05:39 PM   #42
Bobo Fett
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Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

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Originally Posted by coinflipper View Post
its confirmed on many sites that have spins/jackpot sng formats there available 'realtime' assistance. some even sold here on 2+2.
I'd like to know more about this.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:25 PM   #43
getmeoffcompletely
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Re: Bots on iPoker & Bet365 / Future of online poker / Solvers & helpers

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Originally Posted by spew$ View Post
If sites don't invest in being able to detect bots/be more active they won't be around for too much longer.
Not out of the realm of possibility that these are site run bots. Why give regs any piece of the pie when you can just have house bots suck up every single cent of ev.

Seems like every other week there's another thread about bots on these second tier networks like ipoker, party, acr. Detecting bots isn't exactly rocket science, any half decent reg with a hand database can do it. That nothing seems to be done about it shows that either the networks don't care or that they have some self interest in turning a blind eye.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:37 PM   #44
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Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

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Originally Posted by a_r_K View Post
I'm also paranoid some regs i play with a lot use in game realtime software to make decisions . Has it been confirmed at all if any decent ones exist for any of the major sites?
They exist without a doubt. Saying this so confidently because of how easy something like this is to build. Really all you need is a solver solution database and a basic program that will let you browse it. If you want to get fancy you can throw in a screen scraper that will read the table action and automate everything.
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Old 02-15-2018, 12:24 AM   #45
doctor877
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Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

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Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
I'd like to know more about this.
Skier_5 software. Basically its the dreammachine that was used in HUSNGs and ppl were banned using it (IIRC). Obv the software is perfectly fine to be sold and nothing illegal about it when used for studying, its probably fkn great software for studying.

Last edited by doctor877; 02-15-2018 at 12:35 AM.
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Old 02-15-2018, 04:06 AM   #46
skier_5
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Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

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Skier_5 software. Basically its the dreammachine that was used in HUSNGs and ppl were banned using it (IIRC). Obv the software is perfectly fine to be sold and nothing illegal about it when used for studying, its probably fkn great software for studying.
My software is not, was not, and will not be a dream machine or real time assistance. I'm not aware of any people banned for using it (though you do need to use it when the client is closed like any other GTO software). It's only off the table study software. For those unaware, I've made it public now so you can see what it does and purchase it if you like as well.
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:22 AM   #47
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Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

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Originally Posted by skier_5 View Post
My software is not, was not, and will not be a dream machine or real time assistance. I'm not aware of any people banned for using it (though you do need to use it when the client is closed like any other GTO software). It's only off the table study software. For those unaware, I've made it public now so you can see what it does and purchase it if you like as well.
Yeah it's not exactly a dreammachine that could be used to cheat. But it's very close to it, and one with technical knowledge could easily turn it into dreammachine, no?

Read a gametree, find solution for that gametree from massive database of solutions.
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Old 02-15-2018, 07:35 AM   #48
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Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

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Originally Posted by doctor877 View Post
Yeah it's not exactly a dreammachine that could be used to cheat. But it's very close to it, and one with technical knowledge could easily turn it into dreammachine, no?

Read a gametree, find solution for that gametree from massive database of solutions.
It's only really close to it in the sense that any database or library of solutions is close to it. It also has the added benefit that I'm able to monitor access to this library to prevent it from being used in this manner.
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Old 02-15-2018, 08:00 AM   #49
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Re: Bots on iPoker & Bet365 / Unfair AI advantage

Bots have been crushing low limits on all the main sites for years now. How is this news?
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Old 02-15-2018, 08:04 AM   #50
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Re: Bots on iPoker & Bet365 / Unfair AI advantage

Way fewer than normal games running all morning - word obviously got to the botters.
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