Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

News, Views, and Gossip For poker news, views, and gossip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-13-2018, 07:25 AM   #1
Fishtankz
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Fishtankz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 6,358
Exclamation Bots on iPoker & Bet365 / Unfair AI advantage

Hello.

I am maybe the highest volume iPoker player. I have played 248k hands there this year.

My problem has been that I cannot win on lower limits and my winrate is very low. I am surviving on rakeback, HU matches and getting few very good seats every month.
Competition consists of rakeback regs, bumhunters, few good regs and BOTS. I believe it is the latter which has killed my winrate.
On euro sites you always end up finding weaker regs than on Stars. I was winning player on Stars 200nl. I'm just saying something doesn't add up.

The bots

I have played a lot on site called bet365. It offers premium tables which are hidden from other iPoker clients.

I started to notice in January how there were these new hyper-aggressive regs showing up. Lot of flop and turn min-raising and such lines.
I am skilled HU player and I play almost anyone for practise. All of these new regs had same HU stats. 3-bet >25% and OR >95%. Average 6-max reg has 3-bet of 14% and OR maybe 80%.
The thing is, they would all play me non-stop. Typically regs avoid HU / table starting.

At some point it clicked to me that these were bots and not "100z regs".
I did comprehensive analysis on these bots and how they play.
I then proceeded to do the same for suspicious iPoker regs.
Using the data from bet365 bots I was able to put 2+2 together and find out exactly who the bots are.

I had a chat with Internet. We shared our findings and he helped me keep my feet on the ground and not blindly accuse someone of being a bot.

Real time assistance

I believe that there are bots or humans which use some type of real-time helper.
Game trees are pre-configured and solver tells you what line to use.
Poker is a very mechanical game and it's hard for humans to remain balanced in any given spot. Someone might do well with checking flops, but still leak in other areas.
With real-time assistance, you can be unexploitable in any given spot.
Now is this a solver or an algorithm for x % of range, I don't know.

Detecting bots

I wish to keep a lot of my findings private. This is to a) preserve my own edge b) not give bot developers any clues.
I have spent 20-30 hours analyzing this issue so you can completely trust my word that these players are bots.
I also wish to say that I have one of the most detailed HUD's that I self-built.

How do I know that these players are bots?
1) Stats.
2) Weird hands
3) "Some other gameplay stuff"

I have not found any human who could put out a perfect gameplan. Bots are close to that mentioned and it's SIMPLY UNFAIR.
What happens with humans is simply: You want to go for higher volume -> your stats start to leak. You have tough decision on one table and skip bluff/give up on another table. Exploitative game plan also leads to hero having leaks due to player adaptation. So no, high flop XF % is not necessarily bad

How do you feel as a recreational player to find out that you have been playing vs 2 bots at 7am?

A list of suspected bots:

Bot list bet365:

ZHUKBEST
svvag
LUCKKYLOKKI
Slendermein
IAMGROOT7
Rayman58
KILLBILLA87
DEVSERTSPB47
celeryman47
LethoOfGulet
SUXOV88
RadiantSolaris

Bot list iPoker:

oldtimer72
Caligula897
b0charjik
100Cunning
pinoyfdr
Falcon03
NITROX990
Damage699
Rakemaker83
Pumpkinshtein


Humans using real time assistance / possible bot.

- g0sl0wly
- CashGuard2538
- fr000zenflame

(It's really hard for me to make these allegations and I'm only 99% sure this is the case. The gameplan of these guys deviates too much from that of your standard regular. These are 400+ players.)

Why publish the list and let bots cash out?
I want to make recreationals aware that these games are unfair.
I want to let regs know that they are playing against artificial intelligence (AI).
I don't think human can beat AI. oldtimer72 is one of the biggest winners long-term but he is 100% a bot.
I am one of the very few who is able to detect bots.
Without peer pressure, I believe nothing will happen.
We need more regs on iPoker so bots don't get a seat.
Next time you see these guys, you know they're bots.

Don't get attached to any of those players mentioned. It doesn't matter how long you played together or if you made a big river bluff or call vs them. They're bots and it's simply UNFAIR.
Also I only published recent bots that have played this year.

Enjoy and share the post!

Last edited by R*R; 02-17-2018 at 02:32 PM. Reason: Removed a small amount of info as requested by OP
Fishtankz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2018, 07:51 AM   #2
Husker
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Husker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Holsten's Diner
Posts: 12,145
Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

I don't play on Ipoker but I'm interested to see how this plays out. I've heard it mentioned before that there's quite a few bots there.
Husker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2018, 08:20 AM   #3
KossuKukkula
veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,805
Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

I believe that ipoker was one of the first networks infested with bots.
KossuKukkula is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2018, 08:58 AM   #4
Facepalm
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 52
Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

I also play at bet365.

Listed guys are definitely bots. + fluidbomb
Not sure about 4444ppk and ibettufoldd, i think those are using some kind of software or just bots. Playing similarly and quite changing their strats together on 2-3 month periods

Last edited by Facepalm; 02-13-2018 at 09:10 AM.
Facepalm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2018, 09:18 AM   #5
Feelsbadman
banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 70
Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

guys it is possible to run a bot in live poker?
Feelsbadman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2018, 09:28 AM   #6
Husker
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Husker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Holsten's Diner
Posts: 12,145
Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feelsbadman View Post
guys it is possible to run a bot in live poker?
Yes

Husker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2018, 09:55 AM   #7
doctor877
veteran
 
doctor877's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Winland
Posts: 2,929
Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Facepalm View Post
I also play at bet365.

Listed guys are definitely bots. + fluidbomb
Not sure about 4444ppk and ibettufoldd, i think those are using some kind of software or just bots. Playing similarly and quite changing their strats together on 2-3 month periods
4444pk is prob the last person id expect to be a bot. or atleast when i was playing midstakes ~year ago, he used to be the biggest tiltmonkey on the site
doctor877 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2018, 10:01 AM   #8
Fishtankz
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Fishtankz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 6,358
Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Facepalm View Post
I also play at bet365.

Listed guys are definitely bots. + fluidbomb
Not sure about 4444ppk and ibettufoldd, i think those are using some kind of software or just bots. Playing similarly and quite changing their strats together on 2-3 month periods
Sent you PM.
Both guys are not bots. They are nice people. Played a lot vs them.

I want ethical, fair and fun games, that's why I made this post. You log in now and there's bots at every table.
Poker is a lot about human interaction and it's nice to chat and talk about some spots. Log in and see the same faces.
Bot(s) take all of that away.


------------------------

Some of you may be wondering where's the evidence?
I have sent multiple reports over 2 week period to iPoker customer support, who forwards them to their Game integrity and technical department.
I compiled 2 high-detail final reports this morning that I sent.
I don't wish to give away any information to bot developers.
So the iPoker technical department knows all the details, and it's up to them to send out the banwave.
Internet has seen the work that I've done and he can comment few words on that if he wants to.

Let me also clear out few misconceptions about bots.
People think that bots are a) tight b) high volume. Both are not true. Bots these days actually have very high WWSF %. Many of the bots mentioned call very wide preflop.
There could always be some short stacker preflop bot. Old style tight bots should be easy to beat anyways.
I think it's the introduction of solvers that made them a lot better.
I reviewed 2 years old stats from MPN for suspected bots, and those bots had plenty of leaks. Problem these days is that you won't find 1 leak from the bots mentioned. Some of them play tight from the blinds OOP, that's all.

I also wish to add that majority of that 100nl-200nl volume was during and after NYE. Games were beyond excellent at that time. But that's also when I hadn't realized how serious the bot situation was. I didn't play perfect and hero called too much, but definitely shouldn't end up having that bad WR on excellent games. It was -60 EV BI swing 100+200 combined.
Those bots could be colluding and sharing hole cards.
So what I wish to say is that bots can kill your winrate if you are not careful.

Last edited by Mike Haven; 02-14-2018 at 12:12 PM.
Fishtankz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2018, 12:46 PM   #9
VeryBadThings
grinder
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 419
Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishtankz View Post
Bot list bet365:

ZHUKBEST
svvag
LUCKKYLOKKI
Slendermein
IAMGROOT7
Rayman58
KILLBILLA87
DEVSERTSPB47
celeryman47
LethoOfGulet
SUXOV88
RadiantSolaris
Played all from the list except last name but didn't even think that they might be bots.. but I'm almost never suspicuous unless something is very strange (like 4444pk style for example... or some very nitty nl50 regs who play all day).

Following.

GL!
VeryBadThings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2018, 02:16 PM   #10
DarkS1d34l1f3
newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 18
Re: Bots on iPoker & Bet365 / Future of online poker / Solvers & helpers

I have the same thoughts. I started similar topics here and other forums 5 months ago. I spoke with the bet365 support. Nobody cares. Nothing happened.
DarkS1d34l1f3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2018, 02:53 PM   #11
Fishtankz
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Fishtankz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 6,358
Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeryBadThings View Post
Played all from the list except last name but didn't even think that they might be bots.. but I'm almost never suspicuous unless something is very strange (like 4444pk style for example... or some very nitty nl50 regs who play all day).

Following.

GL!
4444pk ftw
One of the OG's!

Interesting to hear that you had no suspicions. Did you think that those players were just very aggressive (good) regulars?


I finished reviewing 2 regulars.
One 100% guaranteed bet365 bot is: Maumaumay
I reviewed one another high WWSF reg, but I couldn't find anything that points to him being a bot. I am still suspicious of him, but it's good that I can be wrong.
I have reviewed each one of the regs mentioned systematically, so I have multiple evidence before I accuse someone of being a bot. Some evidence is very obvious. If that isn't available, then I have to dig deeper. It's very easy to differentiate bot and normal reg btw.
Once you figure out that someone is not a bot, then you can start to think about what makes that player so good. That's the fun part of poker. It should be a humans game.
Fishtankz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2018, 03:10 PM   #12
Husker
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Husker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Holsten's Diner
Posts: 12,145
Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishtankz View Post
4444pk ftw
One of the OG's!

Interesting to hear that you had no suspicions. Did you think that those players were just very aggressive (good) regulars?


I finished reviewing 2 regulars.
One 100% guaranteed bet365 bot is: Maumaumay
I reviewed one another high WWSF reg, but I couldn't find anything that points to him being a bot. I am still suspicious of him, but it's good that I can be wrong.
I have reviewed each one of the regs mentioned systematically, so I have multiple evidence before I accuse someone of being a bot. Some evidence is very obvious. If that isn't available, then I have to dig deeper. It's very easy to differentiate bot and normal reg btw.
Once you figure out that someone is not a bot, then you can start to think about what makes that player so good. That's the fun part of poker. It should be a humans game.
When I played on Party just about every player who I believed to be a bot, after a bit of analysis on HEM, had a WWSF>50%
Husker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2018, 03:29 PM   #13
VeryBadThings
grinder
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 419
Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

Well of all from the list, I thought "LethoOfGulet" is pretty good but then again, I see that name only lately so I thought it's variance (him running good instead of being good).

They were not suspicious to me because I forgot bots exist so I didn't really think about it lol.

Last edited by VeryBadThings; 02-13-2018 at 03:42 PM.
VeryBadThings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2018, 03:29 PM   #14
WonTr1ckPony
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 399
Re: Bots on iPoker & Bet365 / Future of online poker / Solvers & helpers

this is gross but it doesnt really surprise me. nl50 must be swarmed with bots. thanks for taking the time. future of poker not looking too bright.
WonTr1ckPony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2018, 03:30 PM   #15
mrrnnn
centurion
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 117
Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

Perhaps some SNG players will see this topic since it pertains to bots and iPoker ... I'm just wondering since I play at iPoker:

What is the bot situation at 6-max and 9-max small stakes hypers and turbos? ($2/$5/$10)? Any information is welcome.
mrrnnn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2018, 03:31 PM   #16
SootedPowa
veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,538
Re: Bots on iPoker & Bet365 / Future of online poker / Solvers & helpers

Depressing but unsurprising. I completely believe the OP despite zero evidence being shown. Just don't play online poker, this sort of stuff is only going to get worse and it cannot be stopped.
SootedPowa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2018, 03:49 PM   #17
VeryBadThings
grinder
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 419
Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

Just checked HUD of these names.. it's really suspicious that most of these guys don't have high river fold and check back flop, fold turn. Most of regulars have these stats at least 55+
VeryBadThings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2018, 04:03 PM   #18
spew$
grinder
 
spew$'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 523
Re: Bots on iPoker & Bet365 / Future of online poker / Solvers & helpers

If sites don't invest in being able to detect bots/be more active they won't be around for too much longer.
spew$ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2018, 04:08 PM   #19
Jayus
centurion
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 142
Re: Bots on iPoker & Bet365 / Future of online poker / Solvers & helpers

OP check PM pls.
Jayus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2018, 04:39 PM   #20
VeryBadThings
grinder
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 419
Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Facepalm View Post
Not sure about 4444ppk and ibettufoldd, i think those are using some kind of software or just bots. Playing similarly and quite changing their strats together on 2-3 month periods
I think that only similarity is that they are both loose and aggressive/putting pressure but their strategies and sizings post flop are different.

btw. whatever bet365 updated.. it was nicely done (like usually ).. level status is gone and heard from friend that coins are not updated.

Last edited by VeryBadThings; 02-13-2018 at 04:51 PM.
VeryBadThings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2018, 04:39 PM   #21
TooCuriousso1
Golden 2017
 
TooCuriousso1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: @TCfromUB
Posts: 6,341
Re: Bots on iPoker & Bet365 / Future of online poker / Solvers & helpers

Without speaking on specific players, you nailed it imo. It's going on everywhere to some extent, lesser on PS but still happening.

The real key to stopping this is creating a playing environment where bots/scrapers can't read the hands/game state. Things like constantly changing card positions/fonts etc. Although there's prob ways around that too! Idk man...
TooCuriousso1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2018, 04:47 PM   #22
spew$
grinder
 
spew$'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 523
Re: Bots on iPoker & Bet365 / Future of online poker / Solvers & helpers

I really want to believe there is some way they can be stopped with other technologies, but I feel like it is one where the site would have to be constantly changing every month to keep up with botters figuring out their technology. I just don't see that happening, and this would all have to be before people just stop playing all together. Poker sites just seem way too slow and reactive, there reaction in this case will be waiting until poker completely dies.
spew$ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2018, 05:16 PM   #23
cilderr
adept
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 774
Re: Bots on iPoker & Bet365 / Future of online poker / Solvers & helpers

Quote:
Originally Posted by TooCuriousso1 View Post
Without speaking on specific players, you nailed it imo. It's going on everywhere to some extent, lesser on PS but still happening.

The real key to stopping this is creating a playing environment where bots/scrapers can't read the hands/game state. Things like constantly changing card positions/fonts etc. Although there's prob ways around that too! Idk man...
dont delude urselves about stars. yes there is less botting going on around there, but right now prolly hundreds of eastern euros are using illegal multifunctional huds that let u look at premade gto calculations as a sort of semi-live assistance. and that has been going on for quite a long time. wont go into any exact details about that issue bc amaya can go **** itself and i dont wanna help them in any way. i just wanna warn other players that things are not as tos friendly there as it seems.
cilderr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2018, 08:33 PM   #24
POSLARI553
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 81
Re: Bots on iPoker & Bet365 / Future of online poker / Solvers & helpers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishtankz View Post

Bot list iPoker:

oldtimer72
Caligula897
b0charjik
100Cunning
pinoyfdr
Falcon03
NITROX990
Damage699
Rakemaker83
Pumpkinshtein
Can confirm all of them play in the exact same way. Also thought they are bots after 1 month of playing there
POSLARI553 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2018, 08:38 PM   #25
coinflipper
veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: america#1
Posts: 2,223
Re: BOTS ON IPOKER & BET365 / UNFAIR AI ADVANTAGE

there is quite a few bots on ipoker in the mtt's as well (there always has been) but since i personally am not bothering to report and get them banned anymore like i did in 2016 and 2017 it seems like they just simply never get banned unless im doing the reporting. its beyond frustrating so i just gave up caring.
coinflipper is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online